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The other aspect of these is that, unless we're also going to eliminate the possibilities of courts ruling on things, the reversibility features of land registr

The other aspect of these is that, unless we're also going to eliminate the possibilities of courts ruling on things, the reversibility features of land registries and deeds is a feature, not a bug. Husband and wife divorce and the courts rule that the husband gets the deed to the house and the wife gets the Ferrari. Husband refuses to transfer the Ferrari's deed. Now what? Unless you mean that the land registry continues to exist but uses a public blockchain as their database? In which case... why? If they did decide they wanted it all public, auditable, and in the open, they could just publish it as a signed text file every day and anyone who cared could mirror it. Don't get me wrong, I think there's some really cool possibilities in the space, but lots of the things that get proposed are fundamentally subject to court orders. Unless we change the law so that judges can't say "I don't give a shit what the 'blockchain' says, A belongs to X and B belongs to Y, and anyone who won't play ball can sit in jail for contempt until they get on board," there won't be much point in keeping track of those assets on a blockchain.

intotheabyss 6y ago
Have you ever heard of OpenLaw? https://www.openlaw.io/ https://www.openlaw.io/ Court systems, even traditional ones, can interact with Ethereum. At the end of the day, Ethereum is just a ledger. We humans are the ones that enforce laws and social contracts, Ethereum just helps with the (automated) bookkeeping.
- viraptor 6y ago
  If you want bookkeeping where entries can be rewritten by designated parties, then why would you want ETH / distributed consensus? What does it give you in that case over the existing database with a public mirror? Also laws change. What you signed in an ETH contract today may be completely different than what's legal / possible to enforce tomorrow.
  - intotheabyss 6y ago
    Because you trade and automate assets through contract logic. The benefits of contract composability on Ethereum mean that the velocity of money increases because now assets can be manipulated by logic without an intermediary. So if someone wants to borrow your asset, you can deposit it into a contract and now can lend it out peer to peer, and have interest acrue on an ongoing basis. Assets can be more easily "put to work". This is exactly what banks do with your money actually, only with Ethereum it's easier so liquidity / velocity is greater with assets because they can easily move around. It needs to have decentralized consensus because otherwise it's not credibly neutral. If a law changes and affects an on-chain asset, then that logic will need to be reflected on-chain, otherwise the involved parties won't come to agreement in the real world. There are ways to make contracts upgradeable on Ethereum while still preventing someone from stealing funds, like through a multi sig wallet, perhaps with lawyers holding some of those keys. It all depends on how it's structured, but the benefits of using Ethereum (or something like it) are clear.
    - XorNot 6y ago
      You keep saying "asset" as though this means anything. Say my asset is a bulldozer. How is an automated ethereum contract going to lend it out and ensure its return in good working order, or pursue damages if it is not? Say my asset is actually just a lump sum of regular US dollars, which I would very much desire to be returned to me as US dollars plus interest so I can my US taxes with them at a later date. How is an ethereum contract going to actually ensure I get my US dollars back, or have resource to pursue them, seeing as how no mechanisms of US dollars are dependent on ethereum?
      - intotheabyss 6y ago
        The asset won't be the bulldozer, but ownership of the bulldozer. How did the natives of the Yap islands know who owned which Rai stones? Through social contracts. The same would be the case for bulldozer ownerships on Ethereum. It's just a way for you to prove to other humans (or programs) that you own the bulldozer. If you sell the bulldozer in real life, then presumably the buyer would want the ownership. The difference here is where the ownership data lives, not necessarily who issues it. There are stablecoins backed by USD reserves, like USDC. Again, the ethereum contract is only a ledger. The people responsible for giving you USD is going to be Gemini who control the supply of USDC. You having proof that you own USDC allows you to withdraw USD. There are of course stablecoins that are not backed by USD, but rather backed by ETH directly and the USD peg is maintained through arbitrage, oracles and control systems implemented in the contracts.
- ibeckermayer 6y ago
  Why do I want my contracts publicly accessible on a blockchain? All else equal, I specifically don’t want that at all
  - intotheabyss 6y ago
    You can use zero knowledge proofs if you really want to conceal the information in a contract, but still prove to the world that you've fulfilled that contract. If you're using public Ethereum, then presumably you want your contract to be public.

intotheabyss 6y ago

Have you ever heard of OpenLaw? https://www.openlaw.io/ https://www.openlaw.io/ Court systems, even traditional ones, can interact with Ethereum. At the end of the day, Ethereum is just a ledger. We humans are the ones that enforce laws and social contracts, Ethereum just helps with the (automated) bookkeeping.

viraptor 6y ago
If you want bookkeeping where entries can be rewritten by designated parties, then why would you want ETH / distributed consensus? What does it give you in that case over the existing database with a public mirror? Also laws change. What you signed in an ETH contract today may be completely different than what's legal / possible to enforce tomorrow.
- intotheabyss 6y ago
  Because you trade and automate assets through contract logic. The benefits of contract composability on Ethereum mean that the velocity of money increases because now assets can be manipulated by logic without an intermediary. So if someone wants to borrow your asset, you can deposit it into a contract and now can lend it out peer to peer, and have interest acrue on an ongoing basis. Assets can be more easily "put to work". This is exactly what banks do with your money actually, only with Ethereum it's easier so liquidity / velocity is greater with assets because they can easily move around. It needs to have decentralized consensus because otherwise it's not credibly neutral. If a law changes and affects an on-chain asset, then that logic will need to be reflected on-chain, otherwise the involved parties won't come to agreement in the real world. There are ways to make contracts upgradeable on Ethereum while still preventing someone from stealing funds, like through a multi sig wallet, perhaps with lawyers holding some of those keys. It all depends on how it's structured, but the benefits of using Ethereum (or something like it) are clear.
  - XorNot 6y ago
    You keep saying "asset" as though this means anything. Say my asset is a bulldozer. How is an automated ethereum contract going to lend it out and ensure its return in good working order, or pursue damages if it is not? Say my asset is actually just a lump sum of regular US dollars, which I would very much desire to be returned to me as US dollars plus interest so I can my US taxes with them at a later date. How is an ethereum contract going to actually ensure I get my US dollars back, or have resource to pursue them, seeing as how no mechanisms of US dollars are dependent on ethereum?
    - intotheabyss 6y ago
      The asset won't be the bulldozer, but ownership of the bulldozer. How did the natives of the Yap islands know who owned which Rai stones? Through social contracts. The same would be the case for bulldozer ownerships on Ethereum. It's just a way for you to prove to other humans (or programs) that you own the bulldozer. If you sell the bulldozer in real life, then presumably the buyer would want the ownership. The difference here is where the ownership data lives, not necessarily who issues it. There are stablecoins backed by USD reserves, like USDC. Again, the ethereum contract is only a ledger. The people responsible for giving you USD is going to be Gemini who control the supply of USDC. You having proof that you own USDC allows you to withdraw USD. There are of course stablecoins that are not backed by USD, but rather backed by ETH directly and the USD peg is maintained through arbitrage, oracles and control systems implemented in the contracts.
ibeckermayer 6y ago
Why do I want my contracts publicly accessible on a blockchain? All else equal, I specifically don’t want that at all
- intotheabyss 6y ago
  You can use zero knowledge proofs if you really want to conceal the information in a contract, but still prove to the world that you've fulfilled that contract. If you're using public Ethereum, then presumably you want your contract to be public.