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The majority of economic activity is not "programmable"--if I order a ship load of steel from some country, how is that contract going to be enforceable/verifia

The majority of economic activity is not "programmable"--if I order a ship load of steel from some country, how is that contract going to be enforceable/verifiable with cryptoeconomic techniques?

demosito666 6y ago
Economic != financial, which was the point of the parent I believe.
- LB232323 6y ago
  Finance is one of the largest sectors of the US economy, it is central to its role in leading the world economy. Additionally, finance is what controls and directs the economy. It is the business of money itself, in both the public and private sector. Banks play a central role to any economy. Digital currencies can be centralized and controlled in the same way as any state owned enterpeise.
- hatsunearu 6y ago
  The vast majority of finance deals with "real" assets--stocks of companies (arguably blockchainable, like the Topl thing that a sister comment mentioned), commodities (e.g. futures), logistics, etc etc Not sure how that all can be trustlessly secured with blockchain technology
pcthrowaway 6y ago
That's not programmable today, but may be in the future. Presumably the shipment has a series of checkpoints, which add some amount of traceability. There's also the potential for insurance for blockchain contracts. I only recently learned about oracles, but I suspect we're only getting started on unlocking the potential of blockchain. If there are oracles making the progress at each checkpoint along the way available from the blockchain, and insurance contracts for potential disruptions at each stage, your contract can ensure payment on delivery, and the supplier can be insured against any disruptions.
- hatsunearu 6y ago
  Who operates those checkpoints? Isn't there going to be some sort of implicit trust there? Even if somehow you built a machine that executes instructions that is verified on the blockchain, how are you going to make sure that machine's firmware is secure? edit: I think this is a valid thing to tackle potentially as a company, but right now it seems impossible.
ashtonkem 6y ago
Any discussion of programmable currencies is always going to run straight into the oracle problem. It is extremely hard to join on-chain to off-chain things without dragging in a party that is implicitly or explicitly trusted. And the moment you do that, the purpose of cryptocurrencies goes away, as a single database run by the trusted authority is several orders of magnitude more efficient and convenient.
MR4D 6y ago
A firm created at Rice University is actually trying to solve exactly that problem. [0] [0] - https://statistics.rice.edu/news/student-founded-blockchain-company-raises-1-million https://statistics.rice.edu/news/student-founded-blockchain-...
- hatsunearu 6y ago
  And how exactly are they going to blockchain-ify the coporation's interactions with other normal corporations?
  - MR4D 6y ago
    I don't follow it at enough of a detailed level other than to know the UN is using it as a proof of stake concept for the transactions, and then reimbursing the token holder in their local currency (caveat - I think this is correct, but again I'm not involved with them at any detailed level). You may also want to see these for more info: https://www.forbes.com/sites/darrynpollock/2020/02/27/blockchain-for-good-how-the-united-nations-is-looking-to-leverage-technology/?sh=6fcbc298543d https://www.forbes.com/sites/darrynpollock/2020/02/27/blockc... https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20201203005110/en/TrackX-and-Topl-Announce-Strategic-Partnership-Combining-Blockchain-with-Asset-Management-to-Empower-Supply-Chain-Transparency https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20201203005110/en/Tra...

The majority of economic activity is not "programmable"--if I order a ship load of steel from some country, how is that contract going to be enforceable/verifiable with cryptoeconomic techniques?

demosito666 6y ago

Economic != financial, which was the point of the parent I believe.

LB232323 6y ago
Finance is one of the largest sectors of the US economy, it is central to its role in leading the world economy. Additionally, finance is what controls and directs the economy. It is the business of money itself, in both the public and private sector. Banks play a central role to any economy. Digital currencies can be centralized and controlled in the same way as any state owned enterpeise.
hatsunearu 6y ago
The vast majority of finance deals with "real" assets--stocks of companies (arguably blockchainable, like the Topl thing that a sister comment mentioned), commodities (e.g. futures), logistics, etc etc Not sure how that all can be trustlessly secured with blockchain technology

pcthrowaway 6y ago

That's not programmable today, but may be in the future. Presumably the shipment has a series of checkpoints, which add some amount of traceability. There's also the potential for insurance for blockchain contracts. I only recently learned about oracles, but I suspect we're only getting started on unlocking the potential of blockchain. If there are oracles making the progress at each checkpoint along the way available from the blockchain, and insurance contracts for potential disruptions at each stage, your contract can ensure payment on delivery, and the supplier can be insured against any disruptions.

hatsunearu 6y ago
Who operates those checkpoints? Isn't there going to be some sort of implicit trust there? Even if somehow you built a machine that executes instructions that is verified on the blockchain, how are you going to make sure that machine's firmware is secure? edit: I think this is a valid thing to tackle potentially as a company, but right now it seems impossible.

ashtonkem 6y ago

Any discussion of programmable currencies is always going to run straight into the oracle problem. It is extremely hard to join on-chain to off-chain things without dragging in a party that is implicitly or explicitly trusted. And the moment you do that, the purpose of cryptocurrencies goes away, as a single database run by the trusted authority is several orders of magnitude more efficient and convenient.

MR4D 6y ago

A firm created at Rice University is actually trying to solve exactly that problem. [0] [0] - https://statistics.rice.edu/news/student-founded-blockchain-company-raises-1-million https://statistics.rice.edu/news/student-founded-blockchain-...

hatsunearu 6y ago
And how exactly are they going to blockchain-ify the coporation's interactions with other normal corporations?
- MR4D 6y ago
  I don't follow it at enough of a detailed level other than to know the UN is using it as a proof of stake concept for the transactions, and then reimbursing the token holder in their local currency (caveat - I think this is correct, but again I'm not involved with them at any detailed level). You may also want to see these for more info: https://www.forbes.com/sites/darrynpollock/2020/02/27/blockchain-for-good-how-the-united-nations-is-looking-to-leverage-technology/?sh=6fcbc298543d https://www.forbes.com/sites/darrynpollock/2020/02/27/blockc... https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20201203005110/en/TrackX-and-Topl-Announce-Strategic-Partnership-Combining-Blockchain-with-Asset-Management-to-Empower-Supply-Chain-Transparency https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20201203005110/en/Tra...