7 ms·

Heat pumps and better insulation. It's magic how heat pumps pull heat out of thin air. I honestly think part of the reason they are not adopted as much is peopl

Heat pumps and better insulation. It's magic how heat pumps pull heat out of thin air. I honestly think part of the reason they are not adopted as much is people can't understand them and don't trust them because of their ignorance. Insulation seems pretty boring until you start to realize how much energy can be saved by modern insulation.

martythemaniak 6y ago
Me too. I've been obsessing over geothermal systems for a while and I think there's a lot of opportunity there. I wrote this essay to clear up my thinking: https://www.greennewdealio.com/heating/robot-mole/ https://www.greennewdealio.com/heating/robot-mole/
- 2rsf 6y ago
  Geothermal is not uncommon here in Sweden, I think that some goes deep instead of wide maybe because we have a lot of rocky ground which is easier to drill into. But like your article says the installation is too expensive for the expected savings. There is another problem you didn't bring up and is scalability, geothermal works fine for detached houses but not so great in a city where most of the energy goes to. District heating is a great solution for denser population areas, here we burn trash and solve two problems, and in theory it can be combined with Geothermal heating
screaminghawk 6y ago
It's cost for me. Electricity isn't cheap where I live and when your house is poorly insulated you require even more energy for a heat pump.
35mm 6y ago
For new homes absolutely. In the UK gas boilers are the norm and every new home should have a heat pump instead. But retrofitting requires a lot of work - replacing radiators with much larger ones, maybe ripping out pipes, and for ground source digging up the garden / street.
- jayflux 6y ago
  > For new homes absolutely. In the UK gas boilers are the norm and every new home should have a heat pump instead. This is already happening. Redrow for example are focusing on new heating technology for new homes in preparation for the boiler ban
slig 6y ago
Related Technology Connections video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J52mDjZzto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J52mDjZzto
alpaca128 6y ago
Almost all new houses are built with heat pumps where I live because it's kind of a no-brainer in those situations. And I see one old house after the other being wrapped in new thick isolation. But heat pumps in old homes just aren't a thing because it's expensive and a lot of work to adapt the house's existing heating. People do understand it, they just don't want to bother with that.
- frosted-flakes 6y ago
  What is "isolation"? Is that a typo of "insulation"?
  - alpaca128 6y ago
    Force of habit. In my native language we use the same word for isolation and insulation.
    - Kim_Bruning 6y ago
      I was trying to narrow it down, but it turns out a lot of languages do that.
standardUser 6y ago
Energy efficiency technology has been an unsung hero for decades now. It's probably done more to mitigate carbon emissions than any other effort to date.
worik 6y ago
They are good. But not in very cold environments. I have one and when there is more than two degrees of frost it struggles. So for a lot of continental areas they are almost useless since they do not function when you really need them. For temperate climates and coastal regions they are wonderful.
- Robotbeat 6y ago
  I think you’ve stumbled on the REAL reason there’s hesitation with heat pumps. There’s a massive difference in capability and efficiency and usability of heat pumps. The crappy ones don’t even work below freezing. The good ones can operate even down to -20F efficiently, even air source. And ground source ones don’t have a hard limit at all (although they face a similar wide difference in capability). Low effort cheap heat pumps are gonna do more harm than good in that they’ll convince people that heat pumps suck. It’s like the difference between a Tesla and a lead acid golf cart. Both are “electric” “cars”, but there’s vastly different capability.
  - luxuryballs 6y ago
    Yeah my parents are an hour south of the Canadian border in New England and they still heat the house with a wood stove during winter for that very reason. But tell ya what that wood stove sure is amazing, keeps it very warm and it’s not a small house.
    - mdip 6y ago
      I have a buddy who put in a fireplace insert and pellet stove. Besides the fact that he picked up very modern implementations of these two devices, he lives on a 10 acre property that's mostly Cherry Trees, so an electric log splitter was purchased along-side the fireplace insert. He put them in after discovering that heating his house on LP (the only fuel source outside of electric available where he lives) cost about $650/mo to keep his home as warm as he wanted it. IIRC, he was basically keeping his house at 85 on those two devices, alone. He added geothermal a few years later. His home is in the middle of the windiest parts of the thumb -- very, very cold in the winter with a lot of snow.
divbzero 6y ago
Along the same line of thinking, tankless water heating [1] seems like a no-brainer. It surprises me that places like the US have not used it as the default from the start. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankless_water_heating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankless_water_heating
- frosted-flakes 6y ago
  Why not heat pump water heaters? Those are even more energy-efficient.
jayflux 6y ago
In the UK there will be a gas boiler ban on new builds in 2025. That’s when we will start to see a market for these. > I honestly think part of the reason they are not adopted as much is people can't understand them and don't trust them because of their ignorance. I think there’s genuine reason right now. For existing houses it only makes sense if you have really good insulation which rules a lot of people out. That’s why they’re only being focused on new builds, so they can guarantee the insolation is adequate. They’re expensive (for existing housing) and the returns aren’t quite there yet. Parts and expertise are also quite limited compared to boilers (the market isn’t really there yet). It also depends what climate you live in for how useful they will be
signalandnoise 6y ago
there have got to be better ways to optimize the design of boilers, surely this is a RF learning problem against heat equations.
closeparen 6y ago
My condo uses a water source heat pump. It took me more than a few minutes to understand, but it’s so sensible. The building runs water in a loop through all the units. An individual unit’s heat pump can either add energy to or take energy from the water. If the water is too hot it can be cooled in a cooling tower on the roof, and if too cold it can be heated in a central water heater. The unit lives in an interior closet and there is no outdoor component, yet it’s central A/C.

martythemaniak 6y ago

Me too. I've been obsessing over geothermal systems for a while and I think there's a lot of opportunity there. I wrote this essay to clear up my thinking: https://www.greennewdealio.com/heating/robot-mole/ https://www.greennewdealio.com/heating/robot-mole/

2rsf 6y ago
Geothermal is not uncommon here in Sweden, I think that some goes deep instead of wide maybe because we have a lot of rocky ground which is easier to drill into. But like your article says the installation is too expensive for the expected savings. There is another problem you didn't bring up and is scalability, geothermal works fine for detached houses but not so great in a city where most of the energy goes to. District heating is a great solution for denser population areas, here we burn trash and solve two problems, and in theory it can be combined with Geothermal heating

screaminghawk 6y ago

It's cost for me. Electricity isn't cheap where I live and when your house is poorly insulated you require even more energy for a heat pump.

35mm 6y ago

For new homes absolutely. In the UK gas boilers are the norm and every new home should have a heat pump instead. But retrofitting requires a lot of work - replacing radiators with much larger ones, maybe ripping out pipes, and for ground source digging up the garden / street.

jayflux 6y ago
> For new homes absolutely. In the UK gas boilers are the norm and every new home should have a heat pump instead. This is already happening. Redrow for example are focusing on new heating technology for new homes in preparation for the boiler ban

slig 6y ago

Related Technology Connections video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J52mDjZzto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J52mDjZzto

alpaca128 6y ago

Almost all new houses are built with heat pumps where I live because it's kind of a no-brainer in those situations. And I see one old house after the other being wrapped in new thick isolation. But heat pumps in old homes just aren't a thing because it's expensive and a lot of work to adapt the house's existing heating. People do understand it, they just don't want to bother with that.

frosted-flakes 6y ago
What is "isolation"? Is that a typo of "insulation"?
- alpaca128 6y ago
  Force of habit. In my native language we use the same word for isolation and insulation.
  - Kim_Bruning 6y ago
    I was trying to narrow it down, but it turns out a lot of languages do that.

standardUser 6y ago

Energy efficiency technology has been an unsung hero for decades now. It's probably done more to mitigate carbon emissions than any other effort to date.

worik 6y ago

They are good. But not in very cold environments. I have one and when there is more than two degrees of frost it struggles. So for a lot of continental areas they are almost useless since they do not function when you really need them. For temperate climates and coastal regions they are wonderful.

Robotbeat 6y ago
I think you’ve stumbled on the REAL reason there’s hesitation with heat pumps. There’s a massive difference in capability and efficiency and usability of heat pumps. The crappy ones don’t even work below freezing. The good ones can operate even down to -20F efficiently, even air source. And ground source ones don’t have a hard limit at all (although they face a similar wide difference in capability). Low effort cheap heat pumps are gonna do more harm than good in that they’ll convince people that heat pumps suck. It’s like the difference between a Tesla and a lead acid golf cart. Both are “electric” “cars”, but there’s vastly different capability.
- luxuryballs 6y ago
  Yeah my parents are an hour south of the Canadian border in New England and they still heat the house with a wood stove during winter for that very reason. But tell ya what that wood stove sure is amazing, keeps it very warm and it’s not a small house.
  - mdip 6y ago
    I have a buddy who put in a fireplace insert and pellet stove. Besides the fact that he picked up very modern implementations of these two devices, he lives on a 10 acre property that's mostly Cherry Trees, so an electric log splitter was purchased along-side the fireplace insert. He put them in after discovering that heating his house on LP (the only fuel source outside of electric available where he lives) cost about $650/mo to keep his home as warm as he wanted it. IIRC, he was basically keeping his house at 85 on those two devices, alone. He added geothermal a few years later. His home is in the middle of the windiest parts of the thumb -- very, very cold in the winter with a lot of snow.

divbzero 6y ago

Along the same line of thinking, tankless water heating [1] seems like a no-brainer. It surprises me that places like the US have not used it as the default from the start. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankless_water_heating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankless_water_heating

frosted-flakes 6y ago
Why not heat pump water heaters? Those are even more energy-efficient.

jayflux 6y ago

In the UK there will be a gas boiler ban on new builds in 2025. That’s when we will start to see a market for these. > I honestly think part of the reason they are not adopted as much is people can't understand them and don't trust them because of their ignorance. I think there’s genuine reason right now. For existing houses it only makes sense if you have really good insulation which rules a lot of people out. That’s why they’re only being focused on new builds, so they can guarantee the insolation is adequate. They’re expensive (for existing housing) and the returns aren’t quite there yet. Parts and expertise are also quite limited compared to boilers (the market isn’t really there yet). It also depends what climate you live in for how useful they will be

signalandnoise 6y ago

there have got to be better ways to optimize the design of boilers, surely this is a RF learning problem against heat equations.

closeparen 6y ago

My condo uses a water source heat pump. It took me more than a few minutes to understand, but it’s so sensible. The building runs water in a loop through all the units. An individual unit’s heat pump can either add energy to or take energy from the water. If the water is too hot it can be cooled in a cooling tower on the roof, and if too cold it can be heated in a central water heater. The unit lives in an interior closet and there is no outdoor component, yet it’s central A/C.