5 ms·

> But for ElasticSearch you’re stuck with them. I am a bit at a loss about that statement, you can run Elasticsearch on your on infrastructure

by kfir 5y ago

virgilp 5y ago
That is not entirely true, of course. Not if you don’t want to pay. As proof - just look at Amazon, they can’t (that’s why they forked it).
- mikepurvis 5y ago
  I don't think it's the freedom to run it anywhere. It's the freedom to run it anywhere and make changes to it that you don't contribute back: 1. Amazon wants to make private changes to the management layer for their cloud offering and not share those. 2. ES doesn't want that, so the 7.11+ license restricts it. 3. Amazon doesn't want to have to explain to their customers why their ES offering is stuck on v7.10, so they're changing the name of it. 4. Elastic was really hoping this wouldn't happen, but they overestimated the value of their brand and Amazon called their bluff. So yeah, nominally OpenSearch is unrestricted, but realistically few other entities are in a position to make or benefit from the private modifications Amazon will be making. For us normal people, ES and OS are equivalent today, so it's more about how they're going to diverge over time in terms of fixes, features, whatever.
  - judge2020 5y ago
    The SSPL directly prohibits offering the software as a service without releasing the source code of your entire operation regardless of if you change it or not: > If you make the functionality of the Program or a modified version available to third parties as a service, you must make the Service Source Code available via network download to everyone at no charge... > “Service Source Code” means the Corresponding Source for the Program or the modified version, and the Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software, all such that a user could run an instance of the service using the Service Source Code you make available. AKA someone must be able to create aws.example.com if aws uses SSPL code. Not exactly the 'freedom to run it anywhere'. https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license#13-offering-the-program-as-a-service:~:text=13.%20Offering%20the%20Program%20as%20a%20Service https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license....
    - mikepurvis 5y ago
      Doesn't a lot of that hinge on what the "service" is? Like, if I run some generic knowledgebase website and use my own ES installation to provide user-facing search, does Elastic want to see my Ansible scripts? Or just the ones related to the search function? If this interpretation holds, I feel like it could be a pretty big problem for companies like GitLab, who not only have deep integration with ElasticSearch, but offer it as a premium-tier feature: https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/integration/elasticsearch.html https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/integration/elasticsearch.html Maybe this really is just a cash grab from the Elastic side, like, "it's too easy to self-host rather than paying for our SaaS offering, so now you need to pay us for many common self-hosting use cases also."
      - DetroitThrow 5y ago
        There's several lawyers who believe the wording would imply the problematic interpretation - /dev/lawyer is one on the internet, one from my anecdotes is the lawyer who advised the company I used to work at. SSPL doesn't come up under free or open source licenses partly for this reason, actually.
      - judge2020 5y ago
        > Making the functionality of the Program or modified version available to third parties as a service includes, without limitation, enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network, offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version, or offering a service that accomplishes for users the primary purpose of the Program or modified version. This probably qualifies it as a service, but since it looks like gitlab doesn't install it or redistribute it Elastic isn't going to come after them (if they don't use SSPL code then SSPL doesn't apply). Plus, GitLab is effectively open-source, so they might meet the qualification for using SSPL anyways. Of course, I am not your/a lawyer.
      - virgilp 5y ago
        > I run some generic knowledgebase website and use my own ES installation to provide user-facing search, does Elastic want to see my Ansible scripts? According to Elastic, "it depends" - if you can just search by entering a term in the searchbox, you're probably fine; If you allow users to use Elastic's query language, you're very likely in violation. If you let your customers define Kibana dashboards, you're definitely in violation. It's worth noting that you can do a custom deal with Elastic, as long as you pay whatever they ask & accept their terms (or renegotiate them, which is a fairly painful process) - so maybe GitLab did just that.
  - DetroitThrow 5y ago
    Err, SSPL which Elasticsearch is licensed under isn't AGPL - it's a viral, proprietary license - not quite the copyleft we'd want if we wanted a fair playing field between all actors working on it.
    - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
      It's a viral open source license, it literally requires open sourcing code, there's nothing proprietary about it except that we allow a council of elitist snots to decide what is and isn't Open Source(TM), and they have decided Google and Amazon support is more important than viable businesses which are building open source businesses.
      - busterarm 5y ago
        The SSPL literally violates Freedom 0. > The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0). And though we're talking about open source instead of free software, without Freedom 0, the software still might as well be proprietary. Edit: It also violates Rules 1, 5, 6 & 9 of the OSD. So no, let's not call it "open source"
        galaxyLogic 5y ago
        Could you provide a link to explain how it violates "Rules 1, 5, 6 & 9 of the OSD"? Thanks
        busterarm 5y ago
        Common freaking sense reading. https://opensource.org/osd https://opensource.org/osd If you can't use the software because you're a cloud provider, that's rules 1, 5 and 6 easy. If using it forces you to relicense all of your code under the SSPL that's rule 9. It is well known at this point that the SSPL withdrew their request for recognition to the OSI because they do not meet the rules of the OSD.
        5y ago
mixedCase 5y ago
Quoting the comment you're replying to: > If OpenSearch is truely open then in theory you can find another provider Those are the key words. With an open source solution someone else can offer a turn-key solution that benefits from economies of scale.
- ForHackernews 5y ago
  Uh...can they? Who's going to benefit from more "economies of scale" than Amazon, Alibaba?
  - unreal37 5y ago
    Can Azure offer an OpenSearch service? Probably. So the idea is you can move from AWS to Azure if you wanted to with open source services underneath.

> But for ElasticSearch you’re stuck with them. I am a bit at a loss about that statement, you can run Elasticsearch on your on infrastructure

by kfir 5y ago

> But for ElasticSearch you’re stuck with them. I am a bit at a loss about that statement, you can run Elasticsearch on your on infrastructure

virgilp 5y ago

That is not entirely true, of course. Not if you don’t want to pay. As proof - just look at Amazon, they can’t (that’s why they forked it).

mikepurvis 5y ago
I don't think it's the freedom to run it anywhere. It's the freedom to run it anywhere and make changes to it that you don't contribute back: 1. Amazon wants to make private changes to the management layer for their cloud offering and not share those. 2. ES doesn't want that, so the 7.11+ license restricts it. 3. Amazon doesn't want to have to explain to their customers why their ES offering is stuck on v7.10, so they're changing the name of it. 4. Elastic was really hoping this wouldn't happen, but they overestimated the value of their brand and Amazon called their bluff. So yeah, nominally OpenSearch is unrestricted, but realistically few other entities are in a position to make or benefit from the private modifications Amazon will be making. For us normal people, ES and OS are equivalent today, so it's more about how they're going to diverge over time in terms of fixes, features, whatever.
- judge2020 5y ago
  The SSPL directly prohibits offering the software as a service without releasing the source code of your entire operation regardless of if you change it or not: > If you make the functionality of the Program or a modified version available to third parties as a service, you must make the Service Source Code available via network download to everyone at no charge... > “Service Source Code” means the Corresponding Source for the Program or the modified version, and the Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software, all such that a user could run an instance of the service using the Service Source Code you make available. AKA someone must be able to create aws.example.com if aws uses SSPL code. Not exactly the 'freedom to run it anywhere'. https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license#13-offering-the-program-as-a-service:~:text=13.%20Offering%20the%20Program%20as%20a%20Service https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license....
  - mikepurvis 5y ago
    Doesn't a lot of that hinge on what the "service" is? Like, if I run some generic knowledgebase website and use my own ES installation to provide user-facing search, does Elastic want to see my Ansible scripts? Or just the ones related to the search function? If this interpretation holds, I feel like it could be a pretty big problem for companies like GitLab, who not only have deep integration with ElasticSearch, but offer it as a premium-tier feature: https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/integration/elasticsearch.html https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/integration/elasticsearch.html Maybe this really is just a cash grab from the Elastic side, like, "it's too easy to self-host rather than paying for our SaaS offering, so now you need to pay us for many common self-hosting use cases also."
    - DetroitThrow 5y ago
      There's several lawyers who believe the wording would imply the problematic interpretation - /dev/lawyer is one on the internet, one from my anecdotes is the lawyer who advised the company I used to work at. SSPL doesn't come up under free or open source licenses partly for this reason, actually.
    - judge2020 5y ago
      > Making the functionality of the Program or modified version available to third parties as a service includes, without limitation, enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network, offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version, or offering a service that accomplishes for users the primary purpose of the Program or modified version. This probably qualifies it as a service, but since it looks like gitlab doesn't install it or redistribute it Elastic isn't going to come after them (if they don't use SSPL code then SSPL doesn't apply). Plus, GitLab is effectively open-source, so they might meet the qualification for using SSPL anyways. Of course, I am not your/a lawyer.
    - virgilp 5y ago
      > I run some generic knowledgebase website and use my own ES installation to provide user-facing search, does Elastic want to see my Ansible scripts? According to Elastic, "it depends" - if you can just search by entering a term in the searchbox, you're probably fine; If you allow users to use Elastic's query language, you're very likely in violation. If you let your customers define Kibana dashboards, you're definitely in violation. It's worth noting that you can do a custom deal with Elastic, as long as you pay whatever they ask & accept their terms (or renegotiate them, which is a fairly painful process) - so maybe GitLab did just that.
- DetroitThrow 5y ago
  Err, SSPL which Elasticsearch is licensed under isn't AGPL - it's a viral, proprietary license - not quite the copyleft we'd want if we wanted a fair playing field between all actors working on it.
  - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
    It's a viral open source license, it literally requires open sourcing code, there's nothing proprietary about it except that we allow a council of elitist snots to decide what is and isn't Open Source(TM), and they have decided Google and Amazon support is more important than viable businesses which are building open source businesses.
    - busterarm 5y ago
      The SSPL literally violates Freedom 0. > The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0). And though we're talking about open source instead of free software, without Freedom 0, the software still might as well be proprietary. Edit: It also violates Rules 1, 5, 6 & 9 of the OSD. So no, let's not call it "open source"
      - galaxyLogic 5y ago
        Could you provide a link to explain how it violates "Rules 1, 5, 6 & 9 of the OSD"? Thanks
        busterarm 5y ago
        Common freaking sense reading. https://opensource.org/osd https://opensource.org/osd If you can't use the software because you're a cloud provider, that's rules 1, 5 and 6 easy. If using it forces you to relicense all of your code under the SSPL that's rule 9. It is well known at this point that the SSPL withdrew their request for recognition to the OSI because they do not meet the rules of the OSD.
        5y ago

mixedCase 5y ago

Quoting the comment you're replying to: > If OpenSearch is truely open then in theory you can find another provider Those are the key words. With an open source solution someone else can offer a turn-key solution that benefits from economies of scale.

ForHackernews 5y ago
Uh...can they? Who's going to benefit from more "economies of scale" than Amazon, Alibaba?
- unreal37 5y ago
  Can Azure offer an OpenSearch service? Probably. So the idea is you can move from AWS to Azure if you wanted to with open source services underneath.