4 ms·

It's a bit rich that you accuse those who didn't take the initial smear campaign at face value of moving the goal posts. First it was the Epstein connection, w

It's a bit rich that you accuse those who didn't take the initial smear campaign at face value of moving the goal posts. First it was the Epstein connection, which proved false. Then it was predatory behaviour at MIT with three quotes from over 3 decades, a sign on his door, and a mattress doused in implications. Then it was simply "making some people uncomfortable", which is sort of a given if you talk about free software to groups of people who are in the proprietary software industry, and says nothing at all. If you want the "real issues" addressed, stop drowning them in fabrications.

davexunit 5y ago
Until you've been as close to rms as the people that have worked with/for him that have tried and failed for years and years to resolve issues privately, whatever silly argument you are trying to make doesn't have a leg to stand on.
- craigsmansion 5y ago
  > people that have worked with/for him that have tried and failed for years and years to resolve issues privately Is this about Thomas Bushnell? Because I feel this is about Thomas Bushnell[1]. Bushnell is currently a friar in a religious order and works for google, and there is nothing wrong with that[2]. I can easily work with devout religious people and respect and accept them for their superior knowledge of the matter at hand (say, Don Knuth), but there's nothing wrong with politely declining their opinions when it comes to "issues" or how to become a "better" person. Again, no disrespect to Bushnell, who I'm sure did a fine job, but I'm not willing to take his assessment of the personality of an avouched atheist at face value. [1]https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-departure-of-rms-18e6a835fd84 https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-depa... [2] well, working for Google can be debatable depending on what you do there.
  - BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
    > Is this about Thomas Bushnell? Because I feel this is about Thomas Bushnell It doesn't have to be. I've known over a dozen people working at the FSF over the years, and they _all_ had the same stories about trying to avoid RMS as much as physically possible because of his behavior and how he treated people. At some point we have to stop looking for excuses and start listening to the people who are actually there. > First it was the Epstein connection Correction: _Last_ it was the Epstein connection, a straw on a pile of many straws.
    - craigsmansion 5y ago
      > start listening to the people who are actually there. I'd love to, if only these people who are so aggrieved would properly write down their experiences instead of "I didn't like him anyway" after-the-fact tweets. > Correction: _Last_ it was the Epstein connection, a straw on a pile of many straws. Yes, quite enough to build a strawperson as an effigy, and now you're doing it, because there was no Epstein connection. In all of MIT, the only person you can trust not to have any sort of connection to Epstein would be rms, but yeah, let's blame him and the dead guy, and take it from there.
      - BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
        > and now you're doing it, because there was no Epstein connection. If you prefer the phrases "defense of Minsky in his 70s having sex with a minor on a private island where Minksy then later hosted another conference _after_ Epstein's public conviction for sex trafficking and being designated a level three sex offender" or perhaps "refusal to recognize sex with minors as rape" we can use one of those instead. I don't mind. Because Stallman _did_ say he believed that Minsky had sex with a 17 year old on a billionaire's small private island and saw nothing wrong with it, and Minsky _did_ host a conference on Epstein's island after Epstein's crimes became public. > I'd love to, if only these people who are so aggrieved would... I think it's weird for you to expect everyone to blog about their daily negative experiences instead of venting to their friends and then trying to forget. The two sides here are people who work at or with the FSF (or who have close friends who work at or with the FSF) and people whose only exposure is shit blogs that come up on google. And the people who work at or with the FSF are like "RMS is a nightmare for me or for a close friend of mine", and the people who google shit blogs are like "I don't find these shit blogs to be compelling enough to notice the fact that the people saying that RMS has been a nightmare are all the people who have to work with him". Everyone gets to pick their side though.
  - davexunit 5y ago
    No it's not about that person. This isn't about RMS saying something that some of us disagree with and looking past it. It's much bigger than that. For example, RMS made the working environment at the FSF so bad that the staff unionized. The working environment is still bad (staff either burn out trying to make things better or get fired for some reason) but at least RMS can't fire people on a whim and the staff get bereavement leave (RMS was opposed to it) and cost of living pay adjustments (also opposed).
    - africanboy 5y ago
      So in other words at the FSF workers are free to unionize like in the rest of the civilized World, while if you work at Amazon you have to pee in a bottle and be happy about it.
      - dralley 5y ago
        https://twitter.com/paulnivin/status/1377079987950395393 https://twitter.com/paulnivin/status/1377079987950395393
        africanboy 5y ago
        I think we should start a discussion about a simple fact: the World is huge, US is only a small part of it. For example: RMS did not believe in providing raises — prior cost of living adjustments were a battle and not annual. RMS believed that if a precedent was created for increasing wages, the logical conclusion would be that employees would be paid infinity dollars and the FSF would go bankrupt. That's unlawful in Italy to avoid salary discrimination where people in poorer areas (the South) are paid less for the same job. It's considered a great victory by Italian huge worker unions. Or this other one RMS created non-safe spaces at both MIT & the FSF. When I was at the FSF, RMS had little to no empathy for the staff. The FSF was not a healthy, functional workplace. We formed a union to help protect ourselves from RMS — he controlled our pay, benefits, and workplace conditions. Again, this is totally subjective. It's a work place not a kindergarten, you don't like the place you leave, we are talking about software engineers not cleaning staff, they'd have a chance anywhere else. this is simply this guy personally holding a grudge against RMS, but there's nothing objectively bad here. You know what's really bad? that it happens at Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple l, but you don't know because workers simply can't talk about it. Low paid workers fear of losing their salary, high paid workers don't care about them and also don't want to lose their huge benefits and say screw them What is terrifying is people thinking that knowing something is worse than not knowing because if you talk, it's bad for you. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/may/05/amazon-protests-union-organizing-cracking-down-workers https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/may/05/amazon-pr... What is bad IMO is thinking that unions are inherently a bad thing, but I am glad they exist and I am member myself of one of them in Italy that has 5.5 million other members and I gladly pay monthly to be part of it,even though I rarely need them they offer free services and protection to all the workers. If nobody has been fired, harrased or threatened for proposing to unionize, that's a great plus in my book that puts the FSF ahead of many other job places in the US.
  - dralley 5y ago
    Bushnell is by no means the only person who has expressed such things. ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2019/10/15/fsf-rms.html
solosoyokaze 5y ago
> First it was the Epstein connection, which proved false. This didn't prove false. The article we're commenting on is literally RMS defending Minsky who was credibly accused of raping a minor provided by Epstein. RMS is still connecting himself to Epstein.
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  We used to have a word for defending the accused, "Justice". Accusation by a single terrified and led witness does not give license to treat someone like a convict.
  - solosoyokaze 5y ago
    He's not providing "justice", he's tainting open source software. You can read the victim's own thoughts on Stallman: https://twitter.com/VRSVirginia/status/1174108999039406080 https://twitter.com/VRSVirginia/status/1174108999039406080
    - africanboy 5y ago
      what exactly this has to do with what happened to Giuffre and why should we care if it's Giuffre quoting something we have known for years? Is Giuffre some kind of higher being whose words are to be taken as divine thruths, just because she's a victim of something completely unrelated? Has Stallman ever did anything remotely similar to a crime? BTW in my country sex at the age of consent would be considered statutory rape in USA (it's 14 years old here). Does that make all of us rapers of children? That was what Stallman was arguing about.
      - solosoyokaze 5y ago
        I was responding to the parent comment that claimed Giuffre was a "terrified and led" witness.
        africanboy 5y ago

davexunit 5y ago

Until you've been as close to rms as the people that have worked with/for him that have tried and failed for years and years to resolve issues privately, whatever silly argument you are trying to make doesn't have a leg to stand on.

craigsmansion 5y ago
> people that have worked with/for him that have tried and failed for years and years to resolve issues privately Is this about Thomas Bushnell? Because I feel this is about Thomas Bushnell[1]. Bushnell is currently a friar in a religious order and works for google, and there is nothing wrong with that[2]. I can easily work with devout religious people and respect and accept them for their superior knowledge of the matter at hand (say, Don Knuth), but there's nothing wrong with politely declining their opinions when it comes to "issues" or how to become a "better" person. Again, no disrespect to Bushnell, who I'm sure did a fine job, but I'm not willing to take his assessment of the personality of an avouched atheist at face value. [1]https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-departure-of-rms-18e6a835fd84 https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-depa... [2] well, working for Google can be debatable depending on what you do there.
- BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
  > Is this about Thomas Bushnell? Because I feel this is about Thomas Bushnell It doesn't have to be. I've known over a dozen people working at the FSF over the years, and they _all_ had the same stories about trying to avoid RMS as much as physically possible because of his behavior and how he treated people. At some point we have to stop looking for excuses and start listening to the people who are actually there. > First it was the Epstein connection Correction: _Last_ it was the Epstein connection, a straw on a pile of many straws.
  - craigsmansion 5y ago
    > start listening to the people who are actually there. I'd love to, if only these people who are so aggrieved would properly write down their experiences instead of "I didn't like him anyway" after-the-fact tweets. > Correction: _Last_ it was the Epstein connection, a straw on a pile of many straws. Yes, quite enough to build a strawperson as an effigy, and now you're doing it, because there was no Epstein connection. In all of MIT, the only person you can trust not to have any sort of connection to Epstein would be rms, but yeah, let's blame him and the dead guy, and take it from there.
    - BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
      > and now you're doing it, because there was no Epstein connection. If you prefer the phrases "defense of Minsky in his 70s having sex with a minor on a private island where Minksy then later hosted another conference _after_ Epstein's public conviction for sex trafficking and being designated a level three sex offender" or perhaps "refusal to recognize sex with minors as rape" we can use one of those instead. I don't mind. Because Stallman _did_ say he believed that Minsky had sex with a 17 year old on a billionaire's small private island and saw nothing wrong with it, and Minsky _did_ host a conference on Epstein's island after Epstein's crimes became public. > I'd love to, if only these people who are so aggrieved would... I think it's weird for you to expect everyone to blog about their daily negative experiences instead of venting to their friends and then trying to forget. The two sides here are people who work at or with the FSF (or who have close friends who work at or with the FSF) and people whose only exposure is shit blogs that come up on google. And the people who work at or with the FSF are like "RMS is a nightmare for me or for a close friend of mine", and the people who google shit blogs are like "I don't find these shit blogs to be compelling enough to notice the fact that the people saying that RMS has been a nightmare are all the people who have to work with him". Everyone gets to pick their side though.
- davexunit 5y ago
  No it's not about that person. This isn't about RMS saying something that some of us disagree with and looking past it. It's much bigger than that. For example, RMS made the working environment at the FSF so bad that the staff unionized. The working environment is still bad (staff either burn out trying to make things better or get fired for some reason) but at least RMS can't fire people on a whim and the staff get bereavement leave (RMS was opposed to it) and cost of living pay adjustments (also opposed).
  - africanboy 5y ago
    So in other words at the FSF workers are free to unionize like in the rest of the civilized World, while if you work at Amazon you have to pee in a bottle and be happy about it.
    - dralley 5y ago
      https://twitter.com/paulnivin/status/1377079987950395393 https://twitter.com/paulnivin/status/1377079987950395393
      - africanboy 5y ago
        I think we should start a discussion about a simple fact: the World is huge, US is only a small part of it. For example: RMS did not believe in providing raises — prior cost of living adjustments were a battle and not annual. RMS believed that if a precedent was created for increasing wages, the logical conclusion would be that employees would be paid infinity dollars and the FSF would go bankrupt. That's unlawful in Italy to avoid salary discrimination where people in poorer areas (the South) are paid less for the same job. It's considered a great victory by Italian huge worker unions. Or this other one RMS created non-safe spaces at both MIT & the FSF. When I was at the FSF, RMS had little to no empathy for the staff. The FSF was not a healthy, functional workplace. We formed a union to help protect ourselves from RMS — he controlled our pay, benefits, and workplace conditions. Again, this is totally subjective. It's a work place not a kindergarten, you don't like the place you leave, we are talking about software engineers not cleaning staff, they'd have a chance anywhere else. this is simply this guy personally holding a grudge against RMS, but there's nothing objectively bad here. You know what's really bad? that it happens at Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple l, but you don't know because workers simply can't talk about it. Low paid workers fear of losing their salary, high paid workers don't care about them and also don't want to lose their huge benefits and say screw them What is terrifying is people thinking that knowing something is worse than not knowing because if you talk, it's bad for you. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/may/05/amazon-protests-union-organizing-cracking-down-workers https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/may/05/amazon-pr... What is bad IMO is thinking that unions are inherently a bad thing, but I am glad they exist and I am member myself of one of them in Italy that has 5.5 million other members and I gladly pay monthly to be part of it,even though I rarely need them they offer free services and protection to all the workers. If nobody has been fired, harrased or threatened for proposing to unionize, that's a great plus in my book that puts the FSF ahead of many other job places in the US.
- dralley 5y ago
  Bushnell is by no means the only person who has expressed such things. ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2019/10/15/fsf-rms.html

solosoyokaze 5y ago

> First it was the Epstein connection, which proved false. This didn't prove false. The article we're commenting on is literally RMS defending Minsky who was credibly accused of raping a minor provided by Epstein. RMS is still connecting himself to Epstein.

vorpalhex 5y ago
We used to have a word for defending the accused, "Justice". Accusation by a single terrified and led witness does not give license to treat someone like a convict.
- solosoyokaze 5y ago
  He's not providing "justice", he's tainting open source software. You can read the victim's own thoughts on Stallman: https://twitter.com/VRSVirginia/status/1174108999039406080 https://twitter.com/VRSVirginia/status/1174108999039406080
  - africanboy 5y ago
    what exactly this has to do with what happened to Giuffre and why should we care if it's Giuffre quoting something we have known for years? Is Giuffre some kind of higher being whose words are to be taken as divine thruths, just because she's a victim of something completely unrelated? Has Stallman ever did anything remotely similar to a crime? BTW in my country sex at the age of consent would be considered statutory rape in USA (it's 14 years old here). Does that make all of us rapers of children? That was what Stallman was arguing about.
    - solosoyokaze 5y ago
      I was responding to the parent comment that claimed Giuffre was a "terrified and led" witness.
      - africanboy 5y ago