4 ms·

I mean for years it has been an open secret that organizations and also people are okay with certain degrees of problematic behaviours. I cannot remember how of

I mean for years it has been an open secret that organizations and also people are okay with certain degrees of problematic behaviours. I cannot remember how often I read blog articles linked on HN about HR departments ignoring reasonable complaints. At some point it is then also necessary to have direct words every now and then. Otherwise this system is just passed on and never improved. I also have serious doubts that toxic behaviour is supposed to be particularly bad in IT orgs. (What about investment banks or construction businesses?) At the same time the sentiment towards IT is "traditionally" really bad. That said, as long as RMS didn't do anything outside of the law, it might be positive to give him another chance in the FSF world. This would set also an example for a possible way out for other orgs beyond canceling. Although I still think they should put a new person on the top and put RMS next to that person. Also to make the FSF as open as it wants to appear.

ashtonkem 6y ago
> That said, as long as RMS didn't do anything outside of the law. I always balk at the introduction of "the law" into these discussions. Inherently there are all kinds of behavior that is legal but can and should get you fired. Talking about the law here is just setting the bar unreasonably high.
- einpoklum 6y ago
  > I always balk at the introduction of "the law" into these discussions. Me too, but > Inherently there are all kinds of behavior that is legal but can and should get you fired. The thing is, employers are typically not acceptable judges of morality and legitimacy of actions. They have inherent biases in general, and specific ones have a bunch of specific interests of the specific company owners or NGO factions. Which is why it is problematic to move from a moral judgement of someone's actions to a n expectation of them getting fired. -- ... regardless, Stallman is not being hired as an employee, but elected to be a board member, which is something very different.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    > The thing is, employers are typically not acceptable judges of morality and legitimacy of actions. Nice goalpost moving. “Morality” is not the same as “you get to keep your job”. If I stand on the counter and flick every single customer off and tell them that they should <explicatives deleted>, I should be fired. This isn’t making a moral judgement at all, it’s making a judgement about whether or not I’m still fit for the job. > Stallman is not being hired as an employee, but elected to be a board member, which is something very different. The bar for being elected to the board is arguably higher than being hired as an employee.

ashtonkem 6y ago

> That said, as long as RMS didn't do anything outside of the law. I always balk at the introduction of "the law" into these discussions. Inherently there are all kinds of behavior that is legal but can and should get you fired. Talking about the law here is just setting the bar unreasonably high.

einpoklum 6y ago
> I always balk at the introduction of "the law" into these discussions. Me too, but > Inherently there are all kinds of behavior that is legal but can and should get you fired. The thing is, employers are typically not acceptable judges of morality and legitimacy of actions. They have inherent biases in general, and specific ones have a bunch of specific interests of the specific company owners or NGO factions. Which is why it is problematic to move from a moral judgement of someone's actions to a n expectation of them getting fired. -- ... regardless, Stallman is not being hired as an employee, but elected to be a board member, which is something very different.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  > The thing is, employers are typically not acceptable judges of morality and legitimacy of actions. Nice goalpost moving. “Morality” is not the same as “you get to keep your job”. If I stand on the counter and flick every single customer off and tell them that they should <explicatives deleted>, I should be fired. This isn’t making a moral judgement at all, it’s making a judgement about whether or not I’m still fit for the job. > Stallman is not being hired as an employee, but elected to be a board member, which is something very different. The bar for being elected to the board is arguably higher than being hired as an employee.