6 ms·

He has been treated unfairly many times and that is, completely independent of whether he's the best choice as leader for the FSF, wrong. You do it here: "the _

He has been treated unfairly many times and that is, completely independent of whether he's the best choice as leader for the FSF, wrong. You do it here: "the _other_times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia...". He wants to have a discussion about what makes sex between people of varying ages wrong. He applies normative principles to it and can't see why it's wrong (e.g., age of consent varies...why would what is okay in one place be abominable 100 meters away?). I'm sure professional philosophers have written on this at length, and without being punished for going down the exact same road he has. But more importantly he doesn't understand very well that the mere mention of this line of inquiry is borderline reputation suicide because of [blue-team elite coastal] public mores idiosyncratic to 2020 rich western countries. I'm also not sure why "inclusive" is a good criterion for FSF leader, it seems like just a hollow shibboleth buzzword at this point. People who harp on "inclusion" are usually the most interested in exclusion.

solosoyokaze 6y ago
> He wants to have a discussion about what makes sex between people of varying ages wrong. That alone makes him unfit to lead anything (among the many other things he's done). I do not want to hear his opinion on this subject.
- NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
  No, it doesn't make him unfit. It makes him curious and open-minded. How are we as a society supposed to come to conclusions about ethical issues without examining them? If we adopted your stance, nothing would ever change. Conservatives like you would have had the exact same stance on homosexuality 100 years ago: "Zomg no, it's so terrible we won't even consider talking about it except to condemn, and we'll punish people who do try to have an honest conversation". I say this as a person who also is a conservative with respect to statutory rape laws.
  - solosoyokaze 6y ago
    Are you comparing the rape of a minor to homosexuality? I would not work with someone who conversed like this in a professional setting. I'm not alone. It's wildly inappropriate at the very least. It's not his field and he's personally involved with the accused.
    - NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
      "Are you comparing the rape of a minor to homosexuality?" Yes, that's exactly it. Respectable people would have felt the same way about homosexuality 100 years ago as you do about sex involving minors. Further, your characterization as "rape of a minor" is problematic. What's a minor? If one minor is involved, it automatically becomes rape? In much of Europe ages of consent are surprisingly low (14) to Americans, who tend to expect 18. What about a 17 year old and a 19 year old? Two 14 year olds? A 15 year old and a 20 year old? Is what's 100% wrong and prison-bound in the U.S. morally permissible in Spain because the laws are different? Or maybe you have access to the Objective Moral Truths, such that this game is easy for you? If so, do share. It'd make all of this so much easier.
      - solosoyokaze 6y ago
        I would absolutely not work with someone who held these views. Unprofessional, disturbing and illegal.
        WesolyKubeczek 6y ago
        Why do you even think working with you would be sought after?
        myrmidon 6y ago
        I'm trying to understand your perspective. Would you be ok with Stallman defending Minsky if the victim had been one year older? Do you think it should be illegal to publicly defend alleged perpetrators/what Stallman did? Would you react more/less strongly if Minsky had been accused of murder, and Stallman pointed out that the crime was potentially assisted suicide? Do you not want to work with Stallman because his moral system is not solid enough to you, or do I misunderstand your position? Would you be willing to work with an ex-convict in general?
- zajio1am 6y ago
  So do not read his private webpage (which is full of his personal political opinions). RMS clearly separates his free software-related activities and other personal opinions.
  - solosoyokaze 6y ago
    The OP is on fsf.org.
    - zajio1am 6y ago
      But OP does not contain discussion about sex with minors. That discussion was (in the past) on his personal web stallman.org .
      - solosoyokaze 6y ago
        Yes it does. It claims the allegations against Minsky are false. That has not been proven and the allegations are highly credible. It's an offensive and stupid thing to say, especially publicly, especially when you're "apologizing".
        Phelinofist 6y ago
        Innocent until proven guilty? The accusation were neither proven to be true, so what is up with your really flawed reasoning?
        solosoyokaze 6y ago
        The ability to be an effective leader is not a court of law. I'm totally ok calling for someone to step down after they defend statutory rape, in theory and practice (which RMS did both).
        africanboy 6y ago
        > It claims the allegations against Minsky are false. I don't think he did.
benrbray 6y ago
> He wants to have a discussion about what makes sex between people of varying ages wrong. Great, it's an interesting philosophical question. If the issue is so important to him, he should transition to a career in philosophy, or sociology, or anthropology. However, as a board member of the FSF, a public-facing leadership role, his job is to promote free software and nothing but free software. He shouldn't muddle that message by talking about ideas that are generally taboo in normal conversation. And I don't think it's just the [blue-team elite coastal] public for whom sex-with-minors talk is not regular dinner conversation, or at least I hope it's not.
- NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
  Agree with you that the discussion shouldn't be part of his job. But there should also be room for him to have a public discussion that isn't part of his job. I don't recall the details, were parts of this discussion on the fsf home page or something?
  - javagram 6y ago
    No, they were on his personal site where he writes voluminous “political notes”. The only reason that didn’t create more controversy before is that he is very left-wing politically and so are most power brokers in the industry. So being outspoken about the Iraq war, etc didn’t get him canceled in the same way as happened to the Dixie chicks. If he were a strident Republican I suspect his political notes would have put him in trouble far sooner. One could certainly argue that as an ambassador for FLOSS he should have avoided all politics on his website, on the other hand i guess it was only the two (very bad) notes on statutory rape that were dredged up later, along with a variety of other material, to justify the campaign against him since the initial Epstein/Minsky related allegation fell apart so quickly.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
    Not FSF's site that I know of, but there's mentions of these "consensual pedo" stuff on his blog. As he's a visible spokesperson, that means his blog content is part of his overall role, and not something that can be treated in isolation. I'd also push back on the post further up: It's not a particularly interesting philosophical question, and I don't think pure inquiry is RMS's goal here given his tendency to aggressively hit on women that are completely uninterested in him in contexts where such behavior is inappropriate.
amaccuish 6y ago
> He wants to have a discussion about what makes sex between people of varying ages wrong Wtf does that have to do with free software? And why does he keep doing this over and over again? There's no smoke without fire
- teddyh 6y ago
  Why are you so obsessed with RMS? There's no smoke without fire. /s
  - amaccuish 6y ago
    I'm commenting on an article that made it to the front page and is related to an organisation I deeply care about. Otherwise I wouldn't give RMS the time of day ;)
- africanboy 6y ago
  He was writing those things on his personal web site, before anyone called them blogs. It has nothing to do with free software, you're right, they are his opinions on stuff.
Osmose 6y ago
> completely independent of whether he's the best choice as leader for the FSF It's not independent, you can't just drop the context. RMS the 9-5 software dev at some nameless corporation having this discussion is, while still unacceptable (because the relevant society has decided that it is obvious why sex with minors is harmful), not nearly as impactful as RMS the respected-by-many leader of the free software movement. The clout he has from that position and work makes him influential even outside of the sphere, as well as affecting people who might join the movement but are pushed away because they find his other opinions unacceptable. That's why we're talking about it in this comment thread instead of ignoring it like we do most of the weird takes on the internet. > I'm also not sure why "inclusive" is a good criterion for FSF leader, it seems like just a hollow shibboleth buzzword at this point. People who harp on "inclusion" are usually the most interested in exclusion. The paradox of tolerance explains why it might feel like being inclusive of many groups of people involves exclusion.
- NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
  I appreciate your thoughtful reply. I think the problem in it with respect to mine lies here: "because the relevant society has decided that it is obvious why sex with minors is harmful" But it's not obvious who is a minor or when a minor having sex is wrong. I commented elsewhere, but what about two 15 year olds? A 15 and a 20? In some country X where age of consent is 14, vs. in some country Y where age of consent is 18--is there a moral difference? Where is the real moral line that society has decided upon, according to you? 17.375 years? The Minsky / RMS thing involved this sort of question. The girl was 17.
  - seoaeu 6y ago
    That was the question RMS asked, but it is oblivious of a way more relevant point: the girl was a victim of human trafficking. Regardless of age a sex slave cannot consent. Not to mention how clueless you have to be to discuss age of consent laws on a many-thousand person workplace mailing list with teenagers on it.
    - 6y ago
hertzrat 6y ago
The former head of the aclu (a woman) defends Stallman and his various positions. The post was shared a lot last month and is a good read about the entire stallman situation. https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web-rms https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web-rms

solosoyokaze 6y ago

> He wants to have a discussion about what makes sex between people of varying ages wrong. That alone makes him unfit to lead anything (among the many other things he's done). I do not want to hear his opinion on this subject.

NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
No, it doesn't make him unfit. It makes him curious and open-minded. How are we as a society supposed to come to conclusions about ethical issues without examining them? If we adopted your stance, nothing would ever change. Conservatives like you would have had the exact same stance on homosexuality 100 years ago: "Zomg no, it's so terrible we won't even consider talking about it except to condemn, and we'll punish people who do try to have an honest conversation". I say this as a person who also is a conservative with respect to statutory rape laws.
- solosoyokaze 6y ago
  Are you comparing the rape of a minor to homosexuality? I would not work with someone who conversed like this in a professional setting. I'm not alone. It's wildly inappropriate at the very least. It's not his field and he's personally involved with the accused.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
    "Are you comparing the rape of a minor to homosexuality?" Yes, that's exactly it. Respectable people would have felt the same way about homosexuality 100 years ago as you do about sex involving minors. Further, your characterization as "rape of a minor" is problematic. What's a minor? If one minor is involved, it automatically becomes rape? In much of Europe ages of consent are surprisingly low (14) to Americans, who tend to expect 18. What about a 17 year old and a 19 year old? Two 14 year olds? A 15 year old and a 20 year old? Is what's 100% wrong and prison-bound in the U.S. morally permissible in Spain because the laws are different? Or maybe you have access to the Objective Moral Truths, such that this game is easy for you? If so, do share. It'd make all of this so much easier.
    - solosoyokaze 6y ago
      I would absolutely not work with someone who held these views. Unprofessional, disturbing and illegal.
      - WesolyKubeczek 6y ago
        Why do you even think working with you would be sought after?
      - myrmidon 6y ago
        I'm trying to understand your perspective. Would you be ok with Stallman defending Minsky if the victim had been one year older? Do you think it should be illegal to publicly defend alleged perpetrators/what Stallman did? Would you react more/less strongly if Minsky had been accused of murder, and Stallman pointed out that the crime was potentially assisted suicide? Do you not want to work with Stallman because his moral system is not solid enough to you, or do I misunderstand your position? Would you be willing to work with an ex-convict in general?
zajio1am 6y ago
So do not read his private webpage (which is full of his personal political opinions). RMS clearly separates his free software-related activities and other personal opinions.
- solosoyokaze 6y ago
  The OP is on fsf.org.
  - zajio1am 6y ago
    But OP does not contain discussion about sex with minors. That discussion was (in the past) on his personal web stallman.org .
    - solosoyokaze 6y ago
      Yes it does. It claims the allegations against Minsky are false. That has not been proven and the allegations are highly credible. It's an offensive and stupid thing to say, especially publicly, especially when you're "apologizing".
      - Phelinofist 6y ago
        Innocent until proven guilty? The accusation were neither proven to be true, so what is up with your really flawed reasoning?
        solosoyokaze 6y ago
        The ability to be an effective leader is not a court of law. I'm totally ok calling for someone to step down after they defend statutory rape, in theory and practice (which RMS did both).
      - africanboy 6y ago
        > It claims the allegations against Minsky are false. I don't think he did.

benrbray 6y ago

> He wants to have a discussion about what makes sex between people of varying ages wrong. Great, it's an interesting philosophical question. If the issue is so important to him, he should transition to a career in philosophy, or sociology, or anthropology. However, as a board member of the FSF, a public-facing leadership role, his job is to promote free software and nothing but free software. He shouldn't muddle that message by talking about ideas that are generally taboo in normal conversation. And I don't think it's just the [blue-team elite coastal] public for whom sex-with-minors talk is not regular dinner conversation, or at least I hope it's not.

NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
Agree with you that the discussion shouldn't be part of his job. But there should also be room for him to have a public discussion that isn't part of his job. I don't recall the details, were parts of this discussion on the fsf home page or something?
- javagram 6y ago
  No, they were on his personal site where he writes voluminous “political notes”. The only reason that didn’t create more controversy before is that he is very left-wing politically and so are most power brokers in the industry. So being outspoken about the Iraq war, etc didn’t get him canceled in the same way as happened to the Dixie chicks. If he were a strident Republican I suspect his political notes would have put him in trouble far sooner. One could certainly argue that as an ambassador for FLOSS he should have avoided all politics on his website, on the other hand i guess it was only the two (very bad) notes on statutory rape that were dredged up later, along with a variety of other material, to justify the campaign against him since the initial Epstein/Minsky related allegation fell apart so quickly.
- jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
  Not FSF's site that I know of, but there's mentions of these "consensual pedo" stuff on his blog. As he's a visible spokesperson, that means his blog content is part of his overall role, and not something that can be treated in isolation. I'd also push back on the post further up: It's not a particularly interesting philosophical question, and I don't think pure inquiry is RMS's goal here given his tendency to aggressively hit on women that are completely uninterested in him in contexts where such behavior is inappropriate.

amaccuish 6y ago

> He wants to have a discussion about what makes sex between people of varying ages wrong Wtf does that have to do with free software? And why does he keep doing this over and over again? There's no smoke without fire

teddyh 6y ago
Why are you so obsessed with RMS? There's no smoke without fire. /s
- amaccuish 6y ago
  I'm commenting on an article that made it to the front page and is related to an organisation I deeply care about. Otherwise I wouldn't give RMS the time of day ;)
africanboy 6y ago
He was writing those things on his personal web site, before anyone called them blogs. It has nothing to do with free software, you're right, they are his opinions on stuff.

Osmose 6y ago

> completely independent of whether he's the best choice as leader for the FSF It's not independent, you can't just drop the context. RMS the 9-5 software dev at some nameless corporation having this discussion is, while still unacceptable (because the relevant society has decided that it is obvious why sex with minors is harmful), not nearly as impactful as RMS the respected-by-many leader of the free software movement. The clout he has from that position and work makes him influential even outside of the sphere, as well as affecting people who might join the movement but are pushed away because they find his other opinions unacceptable. That's why we're talking about it in this comment thread instead of ignoring it like we do most of the weird takes on the internet. > I'm also not sure why "inclusive" is a good criterion for FSF leader, it seems like just a hollow shibboleth buzzword at this point. People who harp on "inclusion" are usually the most interested in exclusion. The paradox of tolerance explains why it might feel like being inclusive of many groups of people involves exclusion.

NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
I appreciate your thoughtful reply. I think the problem in it with respect to mine lies here: "because the relevant society has decided that it is obvious why sex with minors is harmful" But it's not obvious who is a minor or when a minor having sex is wrong. I commented elsewhere, but what about two 15 year olds? A 15 and a 20? In some country X where age of consent is 14, vs. in some country Y where age of consent is 18--is there a moral difference? Where is the real moral line that society has decided upon, according to you? 17.375 years? The Minsky / RMS thing involved this sort of question. The girl was 17.
- seoaeu 6y ago
  That was the question RMS asked, but it is oblivious of a way more relevant point: the girl was a victim of human trafficking. Regardless of age a sex slave cannot consent. Not to mention how clueless you have to be to discuss age of consent laws on a many-thousand person workplace mailing list with teenagers on it.
  - 6y ago

hertzrat 6y ago

The former head of the aclu (a woman) defends Stallman and his various positions. The post was shared a lot last month and is a good read about the entire stallman situation. https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web-rms https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web-rms