6 ms·

Which is frustrating, because this really should be a circumstance where a genuinely sincere apology should be... acceptable. RMS isn't accused of trafficking

Which is frustrating, because this really should be a circumstance where a genuinely sincere apology should be... acceptable. RMS isn't accused of trafficking here, after all. He jumped in to a heated discussion to defend Minsky (one of his heroes[1] who had been fingered as a john in the Epstein affair). And in the process he deployed a line of argument[2] that probably sounded reasonable to a spectrum personality working in an nearly-all-male tech environment but that REALLY grates to modern ears in a more cosmopolitan world. All that needed to happen was RMS coming out with something along the lines "I'm sorry. I let criticism of my hero cloud my judgement and found myself defending something that shouldn't ever be defended. I should have known better, and know now how much rhetoric like this hurts people. Please forgive me." And that really should have been enough for a community consensus to form around forgiveness. This isn't a Bill Cosby situation, at all. But... I guess he wouldn't. And the FSF couldn't or didn't want to make him. Which is deeply frustrating. [1] And mine, FWIW. [2] To wit: "Engaging with extremely young, presumptively-trafficked prostitutes isn't TECHNICALLY assault". It's... logically arguable, but in context it ends up defending a practice we've all finally decided to abhor.

danpalmer 6y ago
I agree in principle. I think someone in RMS's postition could have apologised far better and been more effective at changing their behaviour. However I'm not sure that RMS himself could do this and at this point I think it's probably too late for the FSF to get him back without backlash because it has gone too far.
ashtonkem 6y ago
Honestly, the fact that a quick apology would have solved this entire problem is the main reason why I think he should go away. The entire situation reeks of extremely poor judgement on his part and the FSF's board, and to my eye seems emblematic of the poor leadership that he and the board have displayed for most of my lifetime. Or more succinctly; if you manage to turn a minor snafu worthy of one apology into a massive scandal that's splitting up your org, maybe you shouldn't be in charge?
- seoaeu 6y ago
  Yeah, when your role has a large public relations component, botching things this badly really undermines undermines the argument that you're the best person for the job.
throwaway8581 6y ago
Who cares what he thinks about Minsky paying for sex? It’s hard to imagine something less relevant to his job.
- danpalmer 6y ago
  I think people care more about the child sex trafficking than the paying for sex. Also your job doesn't have to be about child safety for it to be an issue if you excuse child sex trafficking.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  His job is entirely ideological, so his ideology receives due scrutiny, even if this were an entirely unrelated field. But, given that Minsky is a significant name in the compiter science communities, and that Stallman continues to deny that Minsky's behavior (having sex with a 17 year-old unwilling sex worker while he was 70? 80?, even though he may have thought she was an 18-year old willinh sex worker) is not emtorely unrelated to questions of women's treatment in the computer science and opem source community.
  - guenthert 6y ago
    When did you stop beating your wife? Minsky did not have sex with an underage sex worker. Allegedly Epstein directed that woman to offer sex to Minsky, but that didn't occur. It is mind boggling how readily some people throw mud here.
    - newacct583 6y ago
      We don't know that it didn't happen either. My understanding is that the relevant section of the deposition in question (which was part of a civil suit, not a criminal matter) is redacted. The unredacted contents were reported via a leak to a journalist. And it's not clear if Giuffre was even asked if sex occurred, as it wasn't relevant to this particular suit and the attorneys present weren't law enforcement or prosecutors with a mandate to chase the kind of evidence. A reasonable guess is that Minsky probably did have sex, he just wasn't ever actually accused by anyone (being dead by the time this blew up). Could that be wrong? Sure. But jumping in to argue that the absence of evidence proves innocence while failing to recognize the gravity of the crime involved is EXACTLY the rake that RMS stepped on.
luke2m 6y ago
Exactly.

danpalmer 6y ago

I agree in principle. I think someone in RMS's postition could have apologised far better and been more effective at changing their behaviour. However I'm not sure that RMS himself could do this and at this point I think it's probably too late for the FSF to get him back without backlash because it has gone too far.

ashtonkem 6y ago

Honestly, the fact that a quick apology would have solved this entire problem is the main reason why I think he should go away. The entire situation reeks of extremely poor judgement on his part and the FSF's board, and to my eye seems emblematic of the poor leadership that he and the board have displayed for most of my lifetime. Or more succinctly; if you manage to turn a minor snafu worthy of one apology into a massive scandal that's splitting up your org, maybe you shouldn't be in charge?

seoaeu 6y ago
Yeah, when your role has a large public relations component, botching things this badly really undermines undermines the argument that you're the best person for the job.

throwaway8581 6y ago

Who cares what he thinks about Minsky paying for sex? It’s hard to imagine something less relevant to his job.

danpalmer 6y ago
I think people care more about the child sex trafficking than the paying for sex. Also your job doesn't have to be about child safety for it to be an issue if you excuse child sex trafficking.
tsimionescu 6y ago
His job is entirely ideological, so his ideology receives due scrutiny, even if this were an entirely unrelated field. But, given that Minsky is a significant name in the compiter science communities, and that Stallman continues to deny that Minsky's behavior (having sex with a 17 year-old unwilling sex worker while he was 70? 80?, even though he may have thought she was an 18-year old willinh sex worker) is not emtorely unrelated to questions of women's treatment in the computer science and opem source community.
- guenthert 6y ago
  When did you stop beating your wife? Minsky did not have sex with an underage sex worker. Allegedly Epstein directed that woman to offer sex to Minsky, but that didn't occur. It is mind boggling how readily some people throw mud here.
  - newacct583 6y ago
    We don't know that it didn't happen either. My understanding is that the relevant section of the deposition in question (which was part of a civil suit, not a criminal matter) is redacted. The unredacted contents were reported via a leak to a journalist. And it's not clear if Giuffre was even asked if sex occurred, as it wasn't relevant to this particular suit and the attorneys present weren't law enforcement or prosecutors with a mandate to chase the kind of evidence. A reasonable guess is that Minsky probably did have sex, he just wasn't ever actually accused by anyone (being dead by the time this blew up). Could that be wrong? Sure. But jumping in to argue that the absence of evidence proves innocence while failing to recognize the gravity of the crime involved is EXACTLY the rake that RMS stepped on.

luke2m 6y ago

Exactly.