4 ms·

I really hope this will be sufficient to let this whole situation rest. The right thing to do is to accept his apology while holding him accountable for his co

I really hope this will be sufficient to let this whole situation rest. The right thing to do is to accept his apology while holding him accountable for his commitment to be better in the future.

loloquwowndueo 6y ago
Which apology? He’s only apologizing once quickly for losing his temper (Sometimes I lost my temper because I didn't have the social skills to avoid it. Some people could cope with this; others were hurt. I apologize to each of them.) and spends a whole lot of time explaining why he is different and we should all put up with his social ineptitude because he didn’t know better. That does not constitute an apology. We the socially inept can and do learn to adapt. He’s a clever man, he can do it too.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > We the socially inept can and do learn to adapt. He’s a clever man, he can do it too. This is such a weird concept to me. I have no problems getting social cues, it comes natural to me. Doing it purely intellectually? I wouldn't have a fucking idea how to. I think it's similar to doing pretty lame things like walking. It's a complex task that you can only do because you do it automatically. If we had a pill that would simply remove your muscle memory, you couldn't walk. "Just do it consciously, lol" doesn't work, I think.
  - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
    It's a thing those of us on the spectrum have a bit of a challenge with. Whether people on the autism spectrum are high-functioning or not, probably the top question is "are you mad?" because it is often hard to tell. However, I don't feel autism should be used as an excuse for bad behavior. I take responsibility for my actions and words, and so should RMS.
    - kitsune_ 6y ago
      I think one of the problems is that he speculates about being on the autism spectrum but it looks like he never bothered to get a diagnosis, which then to me also means that he probably is not receiving potentially helpful advice that could improve his interactions with neurotypical people.
      - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
        Definitely plausible. I think he probably is on the spectrum, and yeah, could benefit from taking some time to learn how to cope with how that affects his interactions with others.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      > However, I don't feel autism should be used as an excuse for bad behavior. I take responsibility for my actions and words, and so should RMS. I agree. I'm not suggesting that it should be an excuse, just that it's a weird recommendation. Some people find it easy to acknowledge their difficulties, others have a very hard time with that. It seems to me like RMS alludes to his difficulties, but doesn't get diagnosed, or doesn't share his diagnosis. That's his right, obviously. Other people then figure "hey, that guy is totally normal, he's just an asshole". Coupled with the fact that some get very emotionally invested when certain topics are touched, it's a recipe for disaster.
  - fibonachos 6y ago
    It takes a great deal of work, and my accuracy is still meh, but it can be done. In person interactions wind up being a balancing act between parsing the social cues (verbal and nonverbal) and listening to the words being said. Never both at the same time. It can be exhausting and can take a day or two to fully recover from a prolonged day of socializing.
  - cassepipe 6y ago
    I don't understand why you're getting downvotes. Thank you for acknowledging that there are a lot of our mental lives that is not primarily under the control of our reason. I think it opens the discussion to the spectrum of individual psychological variability. A much needed discussion as apparently some people can't fathom how other persons could differ from how they themselves function.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      I'm convinced that recognizing that variability will be the next big step. It feels like we're currently between ignorance and fetishizing it. I look forward to the day where it becomes more normal, not only because I find it fascinating, but because I deeply believe that a lot of conflict is based on not understand that other people are fundamentally different from ourselves and then applying our framework to their actions and judging accordingly. I have no idea how we'll arrive at that though.
  - philpem 6y ago
    Sounds almost like you're describing high-functioning autism. Yes you can learn by emulation and observing inputs and outputs and looking for patterns, but it's not a perfect method.
    - rbanffy 6y ago
      And then, when someone is mad at you, you ask what happened, explain you didn't realize it and promise you'll change behaviour in the future. I did it numerous times and it's not that hard, but I admit I am much more socially functional than RMS.
- Zelphyr 6y ago
  Genuine question: if he had actually used the words "I'm sorry" or "I apologize", would that have made you feel better about what he said?
  - imwillofficial 6y ago
    Yes
- robinsoh 6y ago
  > spends a whole lot of time explaining why he is different and we should all put up with his social ineptitude because he didn’t know better. I can't help but observe that this type of organizational "put up" is reserved only for some. Some people commit the most minor of crimes, perhaps as minor as enjoying the "wrong" type of music and just like that, never get a chance to participate or contribute. While other people commit terrible nasty crimes with actual real victims and keep getting additional chances. I'm not saying rms is this case.
- icebergonfire 6y ago
  > and [he] spends a whole lot of time explaining why he is different and we should all put up with his social ineptitude because he didn’t know better My reading of this in the context of the post is that he self-aware enough to strive to be better, and admits he has failed to do so in the past. > We the socially inept can and do learn to adapt. He’s a clever man, he can do it too. Your response touches on something I have been trying to articulate for quite some time. For context: I am a bleeding-heart lefty and I am very often one of the loudmouths who critizes bad behaviour, including RMS's many social faux-pas (to put it politely). What do we do with people who are trying to adapt, but their process doesn't look like we expect/wished it did? His apology only barely grazes the actual points he was critized for. But he does admit to failing in the past, and tackles head-on how insufficient his responses were when it comes to women and his defense of Epstein-adjacent topics. As much as we would like people to grovel and apologize the perfect way... they rarely do. Is this, however, a good enough response that we can round it up to _redemption_? We want people to listen when we give them feedback on social stuff, we want them to engage us and take our pleas to heart, we want them to deconstruct themselves and do better. One thing that is missing from these discussions, and this is bigger than the RMS stuff, is a sense of nuance and perspective. The Internet makes it really easy to escalate what should be a complaint into a full-on unforgivable offense... in some cases this is exactly what should be done and I welcome it, but in some others this escalation feels out of whack to me. It is very hard to constructively argue about the proper intensity of our collective blowback to these offenses, because I haven't found a way to build a constructive defense of lesser-punishment that doesn't feel like a defense of the person or offense itself. Back to RMS: while I will listen with an open mind to any oposing arguments you have, my subjective position is that this apology (although imperfect) is good-enough for me to believe he is trying.
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    > My reading of this in the context of the post is that he self-aware enough to strive to be better, and admits he has failed to do so in the past. Just now? He hasn't changed for decades and has been informed his behaviour is something people have "to cope with" for his benefit and never seemed to make even a small effort to change. > As much as we would like people to grovel and apologize the perfect way... they rarely do. Then he's unfit for a leadership role, plain and simple. If he won't be fair, if he won't cease to make people uncomfortable and won't stop making inappropriate jokes, why would the board reinstate him?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
sneak 6y ago
This is an attempt to paper over the fact that FSF intends to retain him in a leadership position and that they think it was just a failure of their announcing it properly. An actual apology by him or the fsf involved rectifying the error of putting rms in a position of leadership.

I really hope this will be sufficient to let this whole situation rest. The right thing to do is to accept his apology while holding him accountable for his commitment to be better in the future.

loloquwowndueo 6y ago

Which apology? He’s only apologizing once quickly for losing his temper (Sometimes I lost my temper because I didn't have the social skills to avoid it. Some people could cope with this; others were hurt. I apologize to each of them.) and spends a whole lot of time explaining why he is different and we should all put up with his social ineptitude because he didn’t know better. That does not constitute an apology. We the socially inept can and do learn to adapt. He’s a clever man, he can do it too.

luckylion 6y ago
> We the socially inept can and do learn to adapt. He’s a clever man, he can do it too. This is such a weird concept to me. I have no problems getting social cues, it comes natural to me. Doing it purely intellectually? I wouldn't have a fucking idea how to. I think it's similar to doing pretty lame things like walking. It's a complex task that you can only do because you do it automatically. If we had a pill that would simply remove your muscle memory, you couldn't walk. "Just do it consciously, lol" doesn't work, I think.
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  It's a thing those of us on the spectrum have a bit of a challenge with. Whether people on the autism spectrum are high-functioning or not, probably the top question is "are you mad?" because it is often hard to tell. However, I don't feel autism should be used as an excuse for bad behavior. I take responsibility for my actions and words, and so should RMS.
  - kitsune_ 6y ago
    I think one of the problems is that he speculates about being on the autism spectrum but it looks like he never bothered to get a diagnosis, which then to me also means that he probably is not receiving potentially helpful advice that could improve his interactions with neurotypical people.
    - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
      Definitely plausible. I think he probably is on the spectrum, and yeah, could benefit from taking some time to learn how to cope with how that affects his interactions with others.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > However, I don't feel autism should be used as an excuse for bad behavior. I take responsibility for my actions and words, and so should RMS. I agree. I'm not suggesting that it should be an excuse, just that it's a weird recommendation. Some people find it easy to acknowledge their difficulties, others have a very hard time with that. It seems to me like RMS alludes to his difficulties, but doesn't get diagnosed, or doesn't share his diagnosis. That's his right, obviously. Other people then figure "hey, that guy is totally normal, he's just an asshole". Coupled with the fact that some get very emotionally invested when certain topics are touched, it's a recipe for disaster.
- fibonachos 6y ago
  It takes a great deal of work, and my accuracy is still meh, but it can be done. In person interactions wind up being a balancing act between parsing the social cues (verbal and nonverbal) and listening to the words being said. Never both at the same time. It can be exhausting and can take a day or two to fully recover from a prolonged day of socializing.
- cassepipe 6y ago
  I don't understand why you're getting downvotes. Thank you for acknowledging that there are a lot of our mental lives that is not primarily under the control of our reason. I think it opens the discussion to the spectrum of individual psychological variability. A much needed discussion as apparently some people can't fathom how other persons could differ from how they themselves function.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    I'm convinced that recognizing that variability will be the next big step. It feels like we're currently between ignorance and fetishizing it. I look forward to the day where it becomes more normal, not only because I find it fascinating, but because I deeply believe that a lot of conflict is based on not understand that other people are fundamentally different from ourselves and then applying our framework to their actions and judging accordingly. I have no idea how we'll arrive at that though.
- philpem 6y ago
  Sounds almost like you're describing high-functioning autism. Yes you can learn by emulation and observing inputs and outputs and looking for patterns, but it's not a perfect method.
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    And then, when someone is mad at you, you ask what happened, explain you didn't realize it and promise you'll change behaviour in the future. I did it numerous times and it's not that hard, but I admit I am much more socially functional than RMS.
Zelphyr 6y ago
Genuine question: if he had actually used the words "I'm sorry" or "I apologize", would that have made you feel better about what he said?
- imwillofficial 6y ago
  Yes
robinsoh 6y ago
> spends a whole lot of time explaining why he is different and we should all put up with his social ineptitude because he didn’t know better. I can't help but observe that this type of organizational "put up" is reserved only for some. Some people commit the most minor of crimes, perhaps as minor as enjoying the "wrong" type of music and just like that, never get a chance to participate or contribute. While other people commit terrible nasty crimes with actual real victims and keep getting additional chances. I'm not saying rms is this case.
icebergonfire 6y ago
> and [he] spends a whole lot of time explaining why he is different and we should all put up with his social ineptitude because he didn’t know better My reading of this in the context of the post is that he self-aware enough to strive to be better, and admits he has failed to do so in the past. > We the socially inept can and do learn to adapt. He’s a clever man, he can do it too. Your response touches on something I have been trying to articulate for quite some time. For context: I am a bleeding-heart lefty and I am very often one of the loudmouths who critizes bad behaviour, including RMS's many social faux-pas (to put it politely). What do we do with people who are trying to adapt, but their process doesn't look like we expect/wished it did? His apology only barely grazes the actual points he was critized for. But he does admit to failing in the past, and tackles head-on how insufficient his responses were when it comes to women and his defense of Epstein-adjacent topics. As much as we would like people to grovel and apologize the perfect way... they rarely do. Is this, however, a good enough response that we can round it up to _redemption_? We want people to listen when we give them feedback on social stuff, we want them to engage us and take our pleas to heart, we want them to deconstruct themselves and do better. One thing that is missing from these discussions, and this is bigger than the RMS stuff, is a sense of nuance and perspective. The Internet makes it really easy to escalate what should be a complaint into a full-on unforgivable offense... in some cases this is exactly what should be done and I welcome it, but in some others this escalation feels out of whack to me. It is very hard to constructively argue about the proper intensity of our collective blowback to these offenses, because I haven't found a way to build a constructive defense of lesser-punishment that doesn't feel like a defense of the person or offense itself. Back to RMS: while I will listen with an open mind to any oposing arguments you have, my subjective position is that this apology (although imperfect) is good-enough for me to believe he is trying.
- rbanffy 6y ago
  > My reading of this in the context of the post is that he self-aware enough to strive to be better, and admits he has failed to do so in the past. Just now? He hasn't changed for decades and has been informed his behaviour is something people have "to cope with" for his benefit and never seemed to make even a small effort to change. > As much as we would like people to grovel and apologize the perfect way... they rarely do. Then he's unfit for a leadership role, plain and simple. If he won't be fair, if he won't cease to make people uncomfortable and won't stop making inappropriate jokes, why would the board reinstate him?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

sneak 6y ago

This is an attempt to paper over the fact that FSF intends to retain him in a leadership position and that they think it was just a failure of their announcing it properly. An actual apology by him or the fsf involved rectifying the error of putting rms in a position of leadership.