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I've learnt those blaming the evil "MAINSTREAM MEDIA!!!!!!" are rarely worth listening to. You know why it's mainstream? Because it's nuanced, and well-researc

I've learnt those blaming the evil "MAINSTREAM MEDIA!!!!!!" are rarely worth listening to. You know why it's mainstream? Because it's nuanced, and well-researched and run by actual real-life journalists. You know what you're left with when the media is no longer mainstream? The extremes.

csemaan 6y ago
As a victim of war myself, I beg to disagree with you.
boredumb 6y ago
The Guardian is not nuanced or well-researching and it's ran by receiving funding from billionaires in order to push public opinion. They are also considered mainstream media by any rational person. Which "Mainstream media" outlets do you consider to be nuanced and well-researched?
- maxehmookau 6y ago
  The Guardian claims to be, and is, a left-leaning media outlet that holds widely left-of-centre mainstream views. I would put the opposite question, which non-mainstream media outlets would you consider to be nuanced and well-researched?
ch4s3 6y ago
This feels to me like a bit of a 1 dimensional appeal to authority. Consider the role of old guard media in selling the war in Iraq to the American public. Their pieces weren't well researched and turned out to have been fed to them by the administration. The Osama Bin Laden cave base diagrams also come to mind in the same vein. The NYT Daily's "Caliphate" podcast series is another great example.
- maxehmookau 6y ago
  Sure, I didn't suggest that they were unimpeachable but the "alternative" sources so often touted by self-proclaimed Facebook experts are orders of magnitude worse.
  - ch4s3 6y ago
    I depends what you mean by "alternative sources". Lot's of places still have local papers that are pretty good for local news. There are international papers that have a different point of view to the American corporate press, which is quite useful from time to time. There's also good bit of quality opinion and some reporting on substack. And then there are some select reporters that have a narrow beat who do great work in their niche, but may work for a place that is overall questionable. American news consumers should be critical, and pay attention to times when major competing news outlets are running the same headline about a complicated story.
CWuestefeld 6y ago
> You know why it's mainstream? Because it's nuanced, and well-researched Ahem. “Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them. "In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.” ― Michael Crichton
- csemaan 6y ago
  This is really all there is to it. Yet the naïve would still want to ask why, as in what's the motivation of pushing baloney? The answer is in another question: is there an industry more entrenched at the intersection of power/control/money?
- kmeisthax 6y ago
  The problem with this quote is twofold: 1. It assumes that inexperience in reporting correlates well across disciplines (i.e. if you read one badly researched physics article, it means the sports pages are similarly bullshit) 2. It assumes the existence of better-informed alternative media In the particular case Crichton cites, it's entirely reasonable to assume a news outfit might have better reporting on Palestine then on physics, if only because politicians have an incentive to talk to news outfits where scientists might not. In fact, much of journalistic ethics and process revolves around trying to determine political "truth", as much as something like that can exist. Conversely, there are plenty of scientists who can explain the details of the Standard Model or Quantum Field Theory; but don't have a single clue as to how trade negotiations work or why we sided with Saudi Arabia despite them not sharing our values one bit. Michael Crichton assumes knowledge is an RPG stat and that if a newspaper fails a knowledge roll once we should discard the paper because it's writers didn't put enough points into INT. Second, most alternative media I've encountered does no better on the "wet streets cause rain" problem. Actually, my experience is that they're more prone to shoddy reporting, because their goal isn't to try and find out something approaching the truth. It's to sell me a series of plausible lies that lead up to their particular political bias. For example, let's talk about climate science. It's a demonstrable fact that the Earth is warming due to human activity, but there's multiple ways one can be wrong about that. The kind of inaccurate reporting I'd expect to see out of a mainstream outfit would be something like "CO2 causes ozone depletion". A right-wing alternative rag would instead try to deny the science altogether, either by casting FUD on the scientific process or worse. The former is something that might be technically incorrect, but the latter is deliberately trying to convince me that black is white, up is down, and short is long.
pessimizer 6y ago
It's mainstream because it's owned by wealthy people who can maintain circulation even if it is losing money, and because those people are willing to float administration and intelligence narratives uncritically and anonymously.

csemaan 6y ago

As a victim of war myself, I beg to disagree with you.

boredumb 6y ago

The Guardian is not nuanced or well-researching and it's ran by receiving funding from billionaires in order to push public opinion. They are also considered mainstream media by any rational person. Which "Mainstream media" outlets do you consider to be nuanced and well-researched?

maxehmookau 6y ago
The Guardian claims to be, and is, a left-leaning media outlet that holds widely left-of-centre mainstream views. I would put the opposite question, which non-mainstream media outlets would you consider to be nuanced and well-researched?

ch4s3 6y ago

This feels to me like a bit of a 1 dimensional appeal to authority. Consider the role of old guard media in selling the war in Iraq to the American public. Their pieces weren't well researched and turned out to have been fed to them by the administration. The Osama Bin Laden cave base diagrams also come to mind in the same vein. The NYT Daily's "Caliphate" podcast series is another great example.

maxehmookau 6y ago
Sure, I didn't suggest that they were unimpeachable but the "alternative" sources so often touted by self-proclaimed Facebook experts are orders of magnitude worse.
- ch4s3 6y ago
  I depends what you mean by "alternative sources". Lot's of places still have local papers that are pretty good for local news. There are international papers that have a different point of view to the American corporate press, which is quite useful from time to time. There's also good bit of quality opinion and some reporting on substack. And then there are some select reporters that have a narrow beat who do great work in their niche, but may work for a place that is overall questionable. American news consumers should be critical, and pay attention to times when major competing news outlets are running the same headline about a complicated story.

CWuestefeld 6y ago

> You know why it's mainstream? Because it's nuanced, and well-researched Ahem. “Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them. "In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.” ― Michael Crichton

csemaan 6y ago
This is really all there is to it. Yet the naïve would still want to ask why, as in what's the motivation of pushing baloney? The answer is in another question: is there an industry more entrenched at the intersection of power/control/money?
kmeisthax 6y ago
The problem with this quote is twofold: 1. It assumes that inexperience in reporting correlates well across disciplines (i.e. if you read one badly researched physics article, it means the sports pages are similarly bullshit) 2. It assumes the existence of better-informed alternative media In the particular case Crichton cites, it's entirely reasonable to assume a news outfit might have better reporting on Palestine then on physics, if only because politicians have an incentive to talk to news outfits where scientists might not. In fact, much of journalistic ethics and process revolves around trying to determine political "truth", as much as something like that can exist. Conversely, there are plenty of scientists who can explain the details of the Standard Model or Quantum Field Theory; but don't have a single clue as to how trade negotiations work or why we sided with Saudi Arabia despite them not sharing our values one bit. Michael Crichton assumes knowledge is an RPG stat and that if a newspaper fails a knowledge roll once we should discard the paper because it's writers didn't put enough points into INT. Second, most alternative media I've encountered does no better on the "wet streets cause rain" problem. Actually, my experience is that they're more prone to shoddy reporting, because their goal isn't to try and find out something approaching the truth. It's to sell me a series of plausible lies that lead up to their particular political bias. For example, let's talk about climate science. It's a demonstrable fact that the Earth is warming due to human activity, but there's multiple ways one can be wrong about that. The kind of inaccurate reporting I'd expect to see out of a mainstream outfit would be something like "CO2 causes ozone depletion". A right-wing alternative rag would instead try to deny the science altogether, either by casting FUD on the scientific process or worse. The former is something that might be technically incorrect, but the latter is deliberately trying to convince me that black is white, up is down, and short is long.

pessimizer 6y ago

It's mainstream because it's owned by wealthy people who can maintain circulation even if it is losing money, and because those people are willing to float administration and intelligence narratives uncritically and anonymously.