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Eh, a gross oversimplification. Feeling troubled by being anxious in the modern world is a "cerebral" issue. The guy who mistook an innocent animal as a tiger

Eh, a gross oversimplification. Feeling troubled by being anxious in the modern world is a "cerebral" issue. The guy who mistook an innocent animal as a tiger and freaked out because of it didn't feel bad for feeling anxious for no reason. We do. Because it interferes with our daily functioning / responsibilities in the modern world. Anxiety is also very frequently comorbid with other mental disorders. Especially OCD or OCD like tendencies, depression etc. I am medicated now and feel a lot better but when my anxiety was worse, the chatter of my "conscious" brain murmuring about "what if" scenarios was the worst. My point is, yes, anxiety manifests itself in a physical way, big time, but that is only half the problem. The discomfort with being anxious, constantly thinking about the possibility of having an anxiety attack even if you are not physically anxious "at that time", evaluating the "what if" scenarios, the constant planning to work around possible issues, all that torture are very cognitive pursuits and they were a lot of a bigger burden on my quality of life than experiencing an anxiety attack now and then.

h0l0cube 6y ago
The argument makes more sense when you realise that Valium/Diazepam is basically a muscle relaxant. Edit: Source here, happy to hear from another domain expert refuting this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAOnSbDSaOw&list=PL848F2368C90DDC3D&index=16&t=4715s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAOnSbDSaOw&list=PL848F2368C...
- dimal 6y ago
  That's not really true. They act on GABA, which is the main inhibitory neurotransmitter throughout the central nervous system. So one of the effects is muscle relaxation, but that's only part of their effect.
  - h0l0cube 6y ago
    Maybe it's not strictly true, but got this from Robert Sapolsky (Stanford neurobiology professor): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAOnSbDSaOw&list=PL848F2368C90DDC3D&index=16&t=4715s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAOnSbDSaOw&list=PL848F2368C... His opinion, or the best understandings on this, might have changed though. From the YT transcript: > Here's somebody taking Valium for anxiety, and here's somebody taking Valium to relax their muscles. What's up with that? It's the exact same thing. And it is a very James-Lange moment. What's part of anxiety about? It's monitoring the level of tension in your body. It's getting feedback from muscle tone. He seems to be suggesting that the mode of action for Valium to reduce anxiety is that of reducing muscle tone. Not an expert, so I can't argue about it.
    - nvrspyx 6y ago
      Going off of the quoted bit because I haven't watched the video, he isn't necessarily suggesting that is the mode of action, just that the mechanism of Valium does both. The mention of GABA enhancement from the comment above alludes to that. Behavior and attitude can influence each other. For example, happiness makes you smile, but smiling can also make you happy (to some degree). The same works for anxiety in which your mental anxiety can make you physically anxious and vice versa. What he is suggesting here, especially considering the James-Lange mention, is that Valium's mode of action is targeting the behavior side of things for anxiety, but does not exclude it from influencing more than just muscle tension. I think the general consensus in psychology is that it's neither the mental state nor the physical state (James-Lange) that create emotion, but rather both. Both can instigate responses from each other. Valium simply influences part of the CNS to affect both, but because it's a drug, it inherently affects the "physical state" more directly. Normal muscle relaxants aren't as effective for anxiety as Valium because they don't have any action on the central nervous system, just the neuromuscular mechanisms. Valium does much more than simply relax muscles. It affects GABA throughout the whole body.
      - h0l0cube 6y ago
        > Normal muscle relaxants aren't as effective for anxiety as Valium because they don't have any action on the central nervous system, just the neuromuscular mechanisms. Valium does much more than simply relax muscles. It affects GABA throughout the whole body. Thanks for clarifying on this. A lot of people seem to think it's okay to just down-vote without providing some sort of counterpoint. I might be naive on a topic, but that's an opportunity to correct, not punish.
        nvrspyx 6y ago
        Agreed. I'm of the stance that I only downvote trolling or absurd claims without any form of supporting details. Otherwise, I prefer to take the route of elaborating/correcting/questioning/etc even if I'm not an expert on the subject because then it at least fosters a discussion and sets up a path for shorter corrective comments from those that don't have the time/motivation/energy to respond in more detail.
  - taneq 6y ago
    Side note, alcohol also does things with GABA and that (plus its easy availability) is probably why so many people self-medicate with it for anxiety-type issues.
    - tluyben2 6y ago
      Yes, and that is a very bad idea as it often makes it much worse over time. Many people I have talked to who were or are drinkers, talked about their hangover as a certain weird feeling they can only stop by drinking. When asked a more detailed description, they describe full blown anxiety attacks. And they need more and more drink to stop them. I got many people to see a doctor and to stop drinking to attack anxiety that way. Liver damage apparently also makes it worse so... There are hard alcoholics who probably have this too but they also have physical withdrawel which is a much more difficult path; most people I mentioned above were having a few drinks per day to not feel like dying from this 'hangover' and could stop the same day without withdrawel (using alprazolam and therapy for instance). Someone did the same for me a long time ago and I am very thankful for that still so I try to do it as well when I see possible sufferers. It is pretty crazy how little people know about it still, but they do light up when I describe all their symptoms.
      - taneq 6y ago
        Oh, I'm not saying alcohol is a perfect fix for anxiety issues by any means! Just that there are a bunch of mental states that people quite legitimately try to escape by any means necessary and that could probably be helped way more with appropriate psychiatric care.
VWWHFSfQ 6y ago
I think there's a difference between anxiety and "worry". Anxiety has acute, uncomfortable physical effects. Things like heart palpitations, sweating, shortness of breath. Those are real things that can often be attributed to different kinds of panic disorders. It's not the same as chronic "worry", or chronic "shame". These are things that live in the mind. Social media, the news, even local news, all contribute to this perpetual state of worry and shame. The "news", even (or maybe especially) local news, will never make you feel good. It will only ever make you feel worried, scared, or disheartened, or ashamed. I've stopped this daily feeling of worry and shame by: * Stopped watching the news * Got my ass off Facebook That's basically it. In the 3 years since I've done those 2 things my daily mood and outlook on life has increased dramatically. Your mileage may vary.
slibhb 6y ago
> Feeling troubled by being anxious in the modern world is a "cerebral" issue. How do you know the modern world is behind your anxiety? I'm more or less with the article (though I have no opinion about the supposed treatment). I think it's a mistake to think it's easy to tell that you're anxious. Anxiety is something you notice by observing yourself, it's not something you know by querying some inner state. And even if you observe anxiety in yourself, you don't have any insight as to why it's there. You might think "the modern world should rationally make me anxious," which seems reasonable. But that's not the same thing as being anxious. I think a lot of people confuse these things. Conversely, I notice I have symptoms of anxiety that seem related (based on proximity) to things that I do not consciously think of as anxiety-causing at all.
- dkarras 6y ago
  I did not claim that modern world is behind my anxiety, just that, following the article's logic, feeling the physical effects of anxiety - even if the cause is not seemingly rational - is a crippling problem only because it interferes with out modern way of lives. Experiencing a "fight and flight" misfire is not, in itself, a huge issue, even if it happens a couple times every day. The problem is you can't really function in the modern society with (or by anticipating) that. That aside, I sometimes forget that everyone's experience is different. The thing I got treatment for (a modern SSRI was all it took) after wrestling with it for more than a decade was definitely easy to tell and query. And when I got an attack, people could tell. And when I was not in an attack, my cognition was 50% busy with worrying about when and in what situation I'd get my next attack.

h0l0cube 6y ago

The argument makes more sense when you realise that Valium/Diazepam is basically a muscle relaxant. Edit: Source here, happy to hear from another domain expert refuting this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAOnSbDSaOw&list=PL848F2368C90DDC3D&index=16&t=4715s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAOnSbDSaOw&list=PL848F2368C...

dimal 6y ago
That's not really true. They act on GABA, which is the main inhibitory neurotransmitter throughout the central nervous system. So one of the effects is muscle relaxation, but that's only part of their effect.
- h0l0cube 6y ago
  Maybe it's not strictly true, but got this from Robert Sapolsky (Stanford neurobiology professor): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAOnSbDSaOw&list=PL848F2368C90DDC3D&index=16&t=4715s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAOnSbDSaOw&list=PL848F2368C... His opinion, or the best understandings on this, might have changed though. From the YT transcript: > Here's somebody taking Valium for anxiety, and here's somebody taking Valium to relax their muscles. What's up with that? It's the exact same thing. And it is a very James-Lange moment. What's part of anxiety about? It's monitoring the level of tension in your body. It's getting feedback from muscle tone. He seems to be suggesting that the mode of action for Valium to reduce anxiety is that of reducing muscle tone. Not an expert, so I can't argue about it.
  - nvrspyx 6y ago
    Going off of the quoted bit because I haven't watched the video, he isn't necessarily suggesting that is the mode of action, just that the mechanism of Valium does both. The mention of GABA enhancement from the comment above alludes to that. Behavior and attitude can influence each other. For example, happiness makes you smile, but smiling can also make you happy (to some degree). The same works for anxiety in which your mental anxiety can make you physically anxious and vice versa. What he is suggesting here, especially considering the James-Lange mention, is that Valium's mode of action is targeting the behavior side of things for anxiety, but does not exclude it from influencing more than just muscle tension. I think the general consensus in psychology is that it's neither the mental state nor the physical state (James-Lange) that create emotion, but rather both. Both can instigate responses from each other. Valium simply influences part of the CNS to affect both, but because it's a drug, it inherently affects the "physical state" more directly. Normal muscle relaxants aren't as effective for anxiety as Valium because they don't have any action on the central nervous system, just the neuromuscular mechanisms. Valium does much more than simply relax muscles. It affects GABA throughout the whole body.
    - h0l0cube 6y ago
      > Normal muscle relaxants aren't as effective for anxiety as Valium because they don't have any action on the central nervous system, just the neuromuscular mechanisms. Valium does much more than simply relax muscles. It affects GABA throughout the whole body. Thanks for clarifying on this. A lot of people seem to think it's okay to just down-vote without providing some sort of counterpoint. I might be naive on a topic, but that's an opportunity to correct, not punish.
      - nvrspyx 6y ago
        Agreed. I'm of the stance that I only downvote trolling or absurd claims without any form of supporting details. Otherwise, I prefer to take the route of elaborating/correcting/questioning/etc even if I'm not an expert on the subject because then it at least fosters a discussion and sets up a path for shorter corrective comments from those that don't have the time/motivation/energy to respond in more detail.
- taneq 6y ago
  Side note, alcohol also does things with GABA and that (plus its easy availability) is probably why so many people self-medicate with it for anxiety-type issues.
  - tluyben2 6y ago
    Yes, and that is a very bad idea as it often makes it much worse over time. Many people I have talked to who were or are drinkers, talked about their hangover as a certain weird feeling they can only stop by drinking. When asked a more detailed description, they describe full blown anxiety attacks. And they need more and more drink to stop them. I got many people to see a doctor and to stop drinking to attack anxiety that way. Liver damage apparently also makes it worse so... There are hard alcoholics who probably have this too but they also have physical withdrawel which is a much more difficult path; most people I mentioned above were having a few drinks per day to not feel like dying from this 'hangover' and could stop the same day without withdrawel (using alprazolam and therapy for instance). Someone did the same for me a long time ago and I am very thankful for that still so I try to do it as well when I see possible sufferers. It is pretty crazy how little people know about it still, but they do light up when I describe all their symptoms.
    - taneq 6y ago
      Oh, I'm not saying alcohol is a perfect fix for anxiety issues by any means! Just that there are a bunch of mental states that people quite legitimately try to escape by any means necessary and that could probably be helped way more with appropriate psychiatric care.

VWWHFSfQ 6y ago

I think there's a difference between anxiety and "worry". Anxiety has acute, uncomfortable physical effects. Things like heart palpitations, sweating, shortness of breath. Those are real things that can often be attributed to different kinds of panic disorders. It's not the same as chronic "worry", or chronic "shame". These are things that live in the mind. Social media, the news, even local news, all contribute to this perpetual state of worry and shame. The "news", even (or maybe especially) local news, will never make you feel good. It will only ever make you feel worried, scared, or disheartened, or ashamed. I've stopped this daily feeling of worry and shame by: * Stopped watching the news * Got my ass off Facebook That's basically it. In the 3 years since I've done those 2 things my daily mood and outlook on life has increased dramatically. Your mileage may vary.

slibhb 6y ago

> Feeling troubled by being anxious in the modern world is a "cerebral" issue. How do you know the modern world is behind your anxiety? I'm more or less with the article (though I have no opinion about the supposed treatment). I think it's a mistake to think it's easy to tell that you're anxious. Anxiety is something you notice by observing yourself, it's not something you know by querying some inner state. And even if you observe anxiety in yourself, you don't have any insight as to why it's there. You might think "the modern world should rationally make me anxious," which seems reasonable. But that's not the same thing as being anxious. I think a lot of people confuse these things. Conversely, I notice I have symptoms of anxiety that seem related (based on proximity) to things that I do not consciously think of as anxiety-causing at all.

dkarras 6y ago
I did not claim that modern world is behind my anxiety, just that, following the article's logic, feeling the physical effects of anxiety - even if the cause is not seemingly rational - is a crippling problem only because it interferes with out modern way of lives. Experiencing a "fight and flight" misfire is not, in itself, a huge issue, even if it happens a couple times every day. The problem is you can't really function in the modern society with (or by anticipating) that. That aside, I sometimes forget that everyone's experience is different. The thing I got treatment for (a modern SSRI was all it took) after wrestling with it for more than a decade was definitely easy to tell and query. And when I got an attack, people could tell. And when I was not in an attack, my cognition was 50% busy with worrying about when and in what situation I'd get my next attack.