4 ms·

Shutdown of the LHC, by Kevin Black

50 points by hhm 18y ago

ph0rque 18y ago
I suppose you could form a hypothesis and conduct and experiment that, if the hypothesis is correct, would cause something "miraculous" (i.e. statistically impossible) to happen in the present...
- IsaacSchlueter 18y ago
  Like, if I forgot my keys, and then decided that, when I eventually find my keys, I'll go back in time and put them under this rock, and then WHOA my keys are under the rock!! (Now to remember to do that, so the universe doesn't fall apart...) disclaimer: didn't rtfa, just having fun.
  - andyjenn 18y ago
    Like it... my first thought was "Bill and Ted meet Stephen Hawking."
henning 18y ago
It's time to play "I don't know crap about physics". If events in the future can influence the present, wouldn't people in the future try to harness that to influence the past? It's impossible to read the OP without thinking of the "future Dwight" prank from The Office.
- dfranke 18y ago
  I think this is supposed to be the "fixed point seeking" theory of time travel, where the resulting timeline is one where any future impact on past events is such that it results in exactly the same future as the one which caused those changes to the past. Basically, applying a Y combinator to the universe :-). I had to phrase that really carefully to avoid having to invent new verb tenses.
  - henning 18y ago
    Woah.
  - hhm 18y ago
    Are you talking about this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel#Immutable_timelines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel#Immutable_timelines
    - dfranke 18y ago
      It's a poorly-written article so I'm not certain, but model 1.2 might be getting at the same thing that I'm describing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_loop_logic#Time_loop_logic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_loop_logic#Time_loop_logic is a better description.
biohacker42 18y ago
TNG anyone?
- zandorg 18y ago
  But no sign of Brannon Braga...
donw 18y ago
Reminds me of a science-fiction short story that I once read. A team working on a massive particle accelerator built to study some exotic low-energy particle kept having it break down every time they tried to use it. Even if everything was working perfectly, something would fail right before the crucial moment, and stop the experiment dead. Months of replacing perfectly good parts went by, until they finally figured things out: They had been accidentally destroying the universe, due to the nature of the particles being studied.
- DavidSJ 18y ago
  What story was it?
  - donw 18y ago
    I wish I could remember... I'll let you know if I do.
netcan 18y ago
There's a bit in "The Elegant Universe" about how at this point it's impossible to distinguish between real but weird physics and just crazy.
- river_styx 18y ago
  Normally that's a sign that you're heading in the wrong direction...
  - netcan 18y ago
    The guy who wrote it (Brian Greene) is a string physicist, so he definitely thinks so. Every time you hear a physicist interviewed about string theory what you get is: 'It's not very good, but it's all we got'
gaika 18y ago
That's just looking at the Schrödinger's cat experiment from the point of view of the cat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_immortality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_immortality
netcan 18y ago
According to Carl Sagan, the experiment will not produce much. I don't think they actually expect to produce micro black holes. The most 'interesting' probable result is actually a negative outcome. IE they fail to detect the Higgs boson. That would mean that the 'standard model' needs to be abandoned.
chris_l 18y ago
Well, I've only read the introduction of the actual paper, but they do start talking about God :)
gaius 18y ago
It is ridiculous to imagine that a species that doesn't even have warp engines yet could destroy the universe.
jcl 18y ago
Proof via rigorous computer simulation: >>> from __future__ import LHC File "<stdin>", line 1 SyntaxError: future feature LHC is not defined
Robbie2008 18y ago
They haven't actually started high energy collision tests yet, so... the black hole possibility is still there. Here's what might happen (it's a flash but it shows the real possibility): http://www.yaplakal.com/forum8/topic208652.html http://www.yaplakal.com/forum8/topic208652.html The guys behind LHC say nothing like that will happen and suggest that nature conducts similar experiments in the Earth's atmosphere every day. However Dr Wagner is pretty sure that nature does not collide two highly focused beams of particles with the energies seen only when the universe was born. See his web site here: http://lhcdefense.org/ http://lhcdefense.org/ The second argument of CERN is that even if a microscopic black hole appears, it will quickly evaporate due to hawking radiation. However, hawking radiation is just a theory. Hawking changed his mind about black holes once, and there's not reason to think he'd get it right this time. There's not reason to bet your life, the life of your children and the future of the planet based on a word of one quantum physicist. Even though the odds of the black hole appearing are not that high, did anyone ask you if you're willing to trust a bunch of scientists with your life just so that they can test their theories? I sure hope that the next time $6 bln dollars are spent by scientists it will be on finding cure for cancer and not the hypothetical higgs particle. Last time quantum physicists produced something useful resulted in millions of people dead in Hirohima, Nagasaki and Chernobyl. The first high power experiments will be conducted end of 2008 or early 2009, so there's still time to stop this doomsday device. I hope that anyone who cares about the future will take an action. Please suggest your ideas on how to do this (no violence, please). Will injunction help? For example: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080123210737AAn0nZV http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080123210737AA... I hope that if enough of us do that, we will be able to save our planet.

50 points by hhm 18y ago

I suppose you could form a hypothesis and conduct and experiment that, if the hypothesis is correct, would cause something "miraculous" (i.e. statistically impossible) to happen in the present...

IsaacSchlueter 18y ago
Like, if I forgot my keys, and then decided that, when I eventually find my keys, I'll go back in time and put them under this rock, and then WHOA my keys are under the rock!! (Now to remember to do that, so the universe doesn't fall apart...) disclaimer: didn't rtfa, just having fun.
- andyjenn 18y ago
  Like it... my first thought was "Bill and Ted meet Stephen Hawking."

henning 18y ago

It's time to play "I don't know crap about physics". If events in the future can influence the present, wouldn't people in the future try to harness that to influence the past? It's impossible to read the OP without thinking of the "future Dwight" prank from The Office.

dfranke 18y ago
I think this is supposed to be the "fixed point seeking" theory of time travel, where the resulting timeline is one where any future impact on past events is such that it results in exactly the same future as the one which caused those changes to the past. Basically, applying a Y combinator to the universe :-). I had to phrase that really carefully to avoid having to invent new verb tenses.
- henning 18y ago
  Woah.
- hhm 18y ago
  Are you talking about this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel#Immutable_timelines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel#Immutable_timelines
  - dfranke 18y ago
    It's a poorly-written article so I'm not certain, but model 1.2 might be getting at the same thing that I'm describing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_loop_logic#Time_loop_logic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_loop_logic#Time_loop_logic is a better description.

biohacker42 18y ago

TNG anyone?

zandorg 18y ago
But no sign of Brannon Braga...

donw 18y ago

Reminds me of a science-fiction short story that I once read. A team working on a massive particle accelerator built to study some exotic low-energy particle kept having it break down every time they tried to use it. Even if everything was working perfectly, something would fail right before the crucial moment, and stop the experiment dead. Months of replacing perfectly good parts went by, until they finally figured things out: They had been accidentally destroying the universe, due to the nature of the particles being studied.

DavidSJ 18y ago
What story was it?
- donw 18y ago
  I wish I could remember... I'll let you know if I do.

netcan 18y ago

There's a bit in "The Elegant Universe" about how at this point it's impossible to distinguish between real but weird physics and just crazy.

river_styx 18y ago
Normally that's a sign that you're heading in the wrong direction...
- netcan 18y ago
  The guy who wrote it (Brian Greene) is a string physicist, so he definitely thinks so. Every time you hear a physicist interviewed about string theory what you get is: 'It's not very good, but it's all we got'

gaika 18y ago

That's just looking at the Schrödinger's cat experiment from the point of view of the cat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_immortality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_immortality

netcan 18y ago

According to Carl Sagan, the experiment will not produce much. I don't think they actually expect to produce micro black holes. The most 'interesting' probable result is actually a negative outcome. IE they fail to detect the Higgs boson. That would mean that the 'standard model' needs to be abandoned.

chris_l 18y ago

Well, I've only read the introduction of the actual paper, but they do start talking about God :)

gaius 18y ago

It is ridiculous to imagine that a species that doesn't even have warp engines yet could destroy the universe.

jcl 18y ago

Proof via rigorous computer simulation: >>> from __future__ import LHC File "<stdin>", line 1 SyntaxError: future feature LHC is not defined

Robbie2008 18y ago

They haven't actually started high energy collision tests yet, so... the black hole possibility is still there. Here's what might happen (it's a flash but it shows the real possibility): http://www.yaplakal.com/forum8/topic208652.html http://www.yaplakal.com/forum8/topic208652.html The guys behind LHC say nothing like that will happen and suggest that nature conducts similar experiments in the Earth's atmosphere every day. However Dr Wagner is pretty sure that nature does not collide two highly focused beams of particles with the energies seen only when the universe was born. See his web site here: http://lhcdefense.org/ http://lhcdefense.org/ The second argument of CERN is that even if a microscopic black hole appears, it will quickly evaporate due to hawking radiation. However, hawking radiation is just a theory. Hawking changed his mind about black holes once, and there's not reason to think he'd get it right this time. There's not reason to bet your life, the life of your children and the future of the planet based on a word of one quantum physicist. Even though the odds of the black hole appearing are not that high, did anyone ask you if you're willing to trust a bunch of scientists with your life just so that they can test their theories? I sure hope that the next time $6 bln dollars are spent by scientists it will be on finding cure for cancer and not the hypothetical higgs particle. Last time quantum physicists produced something useful resulted in millions of people dead in Hirohima, Nagasaki and Chernobyl. The first high power experiments will be conducted end of 2008 or early 2009, so there's still time to stop this doomsday device. I hope that anyone who cares about the future will take an action. Please suggest your ideas on how to do this (no violence, please). Will injunction help? For example: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080123210737AAn0nZV http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080123210737AA... I hope that if enough of us do that, we will be able to save our planet.