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> Nation-states using cyber capabilities in this way Strictly speaking, Iran is not a nation-state. It is a multiethnic state. The way to avoid this confusion

> Nation-states using cyber capabilities in this way Strictly speaking, Iran is not a nation-state. It is a multiethnic state. The way to avoid this confusion is to write ‘state’ (problem here is that this word also refers to American states) or ‘country’ (I think people might feel like this word is not sufficiently sophisticated?). However the error is understandable as it is particularly common in discussions about cybersecurity (or national security, where ‘national’ means the USA). It’s especially silly in those cases as some typical US adversaries (Iran, Russia) are states which are not nation states.

ajcp 6y ago
This is true, although when I was studying international relations "nation-state" was an accepted catch-all for a "top-level" polity in international politics.
tptacek 6y ago
"State-level actor" is, I guess, the accurate schmancy way to say "country".
gen220 6y ago
Is it not the case that a nation can be multiethnic? I don’t see how Iran’s multiethnic populace disqualifies it’s claim on a national identity (Shia Islam). On the wiki page for multinational states, I find reasonable examples (Russia, Belgium, UK), and Iran is absent. [1] Does this have to do with the Kurdish nation claiming territory within Iran? Not trying to say you’re wrong, just trying to understand the terminology better. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_state https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_state
- dan-robertson 6y ago
  Nation is a word with two meanings. One is ‘country’ so the answer is yes (note that nation-state is a silly phrase under this meaning). You see it in terms like nationalisation of industry or national anthem. The other meaning is a group of people with (typically) shared ethnicity, cultural heritage, language, and often, country. For this a multiethnic country doesn’t usually fit the bill. But to some extent words can mean whatever you want them to and lots of groups want themselves to be considered nations (either to promote some unity across diverse people or to push out undesirable groups) even if they don’t strictly fit the usual definition.
  - parshua 6y ago
    What are you even talking about? Not only is Iran a nation-state, it is probably one of the first nation-states to exist. The Name of the country itself is close to 2000 years old, and the language they speak is at least 1400 years old. They have had a continuous culture for millennia, and identify themselves as a nation, by name, culture and mostly the language.
    - gen220 6y ago
      I think it's reasonable to debate the language aspect (that's why my original comment focused on religion, which at least appears to be more homogenous in surveys). Apparently ~1/2 of Iranian citizens claim Farsi as their mother tongue, with many citizens claiming Turkic dialects, Kurdish, and "Linguistically-Iranian languages" that are not Farsi (in my mind, this is comparable to Gaeilge, Scots, Welsh within the UK). Then again, I'm sure that identifying as an atheist or non-Shia Muslim in Iran is not in most citizens' best interests, regardless of their underlying beliefs. I don't have a point or conclusion, I do think it's a reasonable thing to discuss. Ultimately, "nation" is an human construct, the and the people who have the authority to claim it are the Iranian people. The Kurds (who compose a significant minority within Iran) would reject the nationalities "Iranian" or "Persian", I think; even more so than Catalans, Basque, or Galcian peoples would reject "Spanish". I don't know if other minorities comprising Iran would, too. It's an interesting question to ponder, though. Anyways, thank you all for this pedantic stroll, it made me learn more about this part of the world than I probably would have, otherwise. :P
eternalban 6y ago
> Strictly speaking, Iran is not a nation-state. It is a multiethnic state. Switzerland, Britain, ... Strictly speaking, you need to consult the dictionary. noun: a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory: leading industrialized nations. Iran checks multiple boxes on that list. As for US, is it really a nation or is it a corporate spin off? Curious, too, how those 13 bars ended up as 13 "states".. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company
- dan-robertson 6y ago
  So it’s complicated because there is a loose definition of nation as a synonym of country (eg nationalised industry, national anthem, ...) and a second more narrow definition which is the one used in the term ‘nation-state.’ But if the former definition of nation is being used then it is entirely redundant and writing a long confusing term instead of a well understood one is just lazy writing. Wikipedia gives a more narrow definition of nation-state than you (but English dictionaries by their nature tend to give broad definitions) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state
  - eternalban 6y ago
    It’s not complicated at all. You are insinuating that Iran is a complex of nationalities which is patent nonsense. Iran’s culture is so dominant, so well defined, and has been so long before some Europeans got together after dealing with Bonaparte and coming up with “Nation State”.
deleted 6y ago
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ajcp 6y ago

This is true, although when I was studying international relations "nation-state" was an accepted catch-all for a "top-level" polity in international politics.

tptacek 6y ago

"State-level actor" is, I guess, the accurate schmancy way to say "country".

gen220 6y ago

Is it not the case that a nation can be multiethnic? I don’t see how Iran’s multiethnic populace disqualifies it’s claim on a national identity (Shia Islam). On the wiki page for multinational states, I find reasonable examples (Russia, Belgium, UK), and Iran is absent. [1] Does this have to do with the Kurdish nation claiming territory within Iran? Not trying to say you’re wrong, just trying to understand the terminology better. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_state https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_state

dan-robertson 6y ago
Nation is a word with two meanings. One is ‘country’ so the answer is yes (note that nation-state is a silly phrase under this meaning). You see it in terms like nationalisation of industry or national anthem. The other meaning is a group of people with (typically) shared ethnicity, cultural heritage, language, and often, country. For this a multiethnic country doesn’t usually fit the bill. But to some extent words can mean whatever you want them to and lots of groups want themselves to be considered nations (either to promote some unity across diverse people or to push out undesirable groups) even if they don’t strictly fit the usual definition.
- parshua 6y ago
  What are you even talking about? Not only is Iran a nation-state, it is probably one of the first nation-states to exist. The Name of the country itself is close to 2000 years old, and the language they speak is at least 1400 years old. They have had a continuous culture for millennia, and identify themselves as a nation, by name, culture and mostly the language.
  - gen220 6y ago
    I think it's reasonable to debate the language aspect (that's why my original comment focused on religion, which at least appears to be more homogenous in surveys). Apparently ~1/2 of Iranian citizens claim Farsi as their mother tongue, with many citizens claiming Turkic dialects, Kurdish, and "Linguistically-Iranian languages" that are not Farsi (in my mind, this is comparable to Gaeilge, Scots, Welsh within the UK). Then again, I'm sure that identifying as an atheist or non-Shia Muslim in Iran is not in most citizens' best interests, regardless of their underlying beliefs. I don't have a point or conclusion, I do think it's a reasonable thing to discuss. Ultimately, "nation" is an human construct, the and the people who have the authority to claim it are the Iranian people. The Kurds (who compose a significant minority within Iran) would reject the nationalities "Iranian" or "Persian", I think; even more so than Catalans, Basque, or Galcian peoples would reject "Spanish". I don't know if other minorities comprising Iran would, too. It's an interesting question to ponder, though. Anyways, thank you all for this pedantic stroll, it made me learn more about this part of the world than I probably would have, otherwise. :P

eternalban 6y ago

> Strictly speaking, Iran is not a nation-state. It is a multiethnic state. Switzerland, Britain, ... Strictly speaking, you need to consult the dictionary. noun: a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory: leading industrialized nations. Iran checks multiple boxes on that list. As for US, is it really a nation or is it a corporate spin off? Curious, too, how those 13 bars ended up as 13 "states".. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company

dan-robertson 6y ago
So it’s complicated because there is a loose definition of nation as a synonym of country (eg nationalised industry, national anthem, ...) and a second more narrow definition which is the one used in the term ‘nation-state.’ But if the former definition of nation is being used then it is entirely redundant and writing a long confusing term instead of a well understood one is just lazy writing. Wikipedia gives a more narrow definition of nation-state than you (but English dictionaries by their nature tend to give broad definitions) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state
- eternalban 6y ago
  It’s not complicated at all. You are insinuating that Iran is a complex of nationalities which is patent nonsense. Iran’s culture is so dominant, so well defined, and has been so long before some Europeans got together after dealing with Bonaparte and coming up with “Nation State”.

deleted 6y ago

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