20 ms·

Making Librem 5 Apps [video]

295 points by ruph123 6y ago

pydry 6y ago
How easy would it be to build anbox, so you could run Android apps?
- fsflover 6y ago
  It already works for many apps: https://puri.sm/posts/anbox-on-the-librem-5/ https://puri.sm/posts/anbox-on-the-librem-5/.
- axelthegerman 6y ago
  Why do people always want to run all their Android apps?! Why not iOS and Windows apps too?? Hkw about we figure out which apps are missing and build them natively. Linux phones still need work to be opimized for the hardware, lets not add more abstractions and slow it down by emulating proprietary runtimes
  - karlicoss 6y ago
    Sadly often it's necessary for various proprietary apps like banking, government apps etc
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    Because access to mainstream proprietary mobile apps is becoming increasingly necessary to function in modern society, and people know that the iOS versions are a lost cause.
    - ryukafalz 6y ago
      You're right, of course. And notably in the case of Android apps, they often also depend on Play Services and therefore require agreeing to Google's ToS. Folks: if you don't like two major tech giants having so much power, push back against requiring apps like that when you see it. This is how they get so much power. (I'm especially worried about government apps requiring Android with Play Services or iOS.)
  - kop316 6y ago
    Unfortunately, this discounts apps folks depend on made by a company that they need, and that company won't build an app like that. One example could be like a banking app. One that really annoyed me was my school forced Duo Mobile on us. Duo Mobile uses HOTP, but they do not officially support third party 2FA. I was lucky some folks already reverse engineered the protocol so I could use a third party 2FA app.
  - blendergeek 6y ago
    > Why do people always want to run all their Android apps? Android already has a complete set of phone-ready apps available. > Why not iOS and Windows apps too?? We already have Wine for running Windows apps.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    > Why do people always want to run all their Android apps?! Why not iOS and Windows apps too?? Yeah, that'd be great! Unfortunately Darling isn't running GUI apps yet even for desktop apps, but the start is there. Windows apps are frequently compiled for x86, so we'd need to plug together WINE+qemu, but it should work. Windows apps also aren't designed for mobile like Android, but in many cases I'd bet it can be made to work.
- admax88q 6y ago
  Running anbox on Linux phone just feels like a less efficient way to run android.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    > less efficient But much more secure.
    - atat7024 6y ago
      Compared to Samsung Android, sure.
SwiftyBug 6y ago
This is quite impressive. I've always found the iOS development experience very smooth, but after seeing this I'm not sure about that anymore.
jodoherty 6y ago
The key takeaway to me is that developing mobile apps for the Librem 5 on the Librem 5 is a first class development workflow. This is great. Not having to worry about setting up toolchains on a separate platform, cross-compiling, and then signing/transferring apps and running remote debugging sessions makes it easy to just build and test apps.
- sneak 6y ago
  No signing also means that the workflow for developing malware for the platform is exactly the same, too. :) My issue with the Apple ecosystem is not the cryptographic protections - it's with the fact that the keys aren't mine.
  - simias 6y ago
    I'm not sure I understand. Crypto won't protect you from malware by itself, it just creates a chain of custody. App store apps are not secure because they're signed, they're secure because they're signed by Apple. For the librem it's just like a desktop computer, don't install software from untrusted sources, keep your stuff updated and you should be fine.
    - swiley 6y ago
      Meh, signing by Apple really doesn't mean more than Apple looked (visually) at a running instance of the app and said "eh it doesn't look like it's breaking the rules." They don't do any instrumentation and often the developers themselves don't even understand what all the binary dylibs they're including do.
      - simias 6y ago
        I don't own an Apple device myself but don't they have a pretty good track record when it comes to the security of their apps? Plus all the guidelines they've been enforcing lately when it comes to user tracking etc... At any rate my general point still stands I think, it doesn't really matter whether librem apps are signed or not, what matters is where you put your trust. I'm sure some package managers (first party or otherwise) will be able to provide a curated experience if the platform is successful, like what linux distros offer.
Netcob 6y ago
It's only a matter of time until we can develop smartwatch apps - on our smartwatch.
- fsflover 6y ago
  https://www.pine64.org/pinetime/ https://www.pine64.org/pinetime/
  - zepto 6y ago
    Why would you post that when it clearly can’t be programmed on device?
    - fsflover 6y ago
      It shows the path to that. At least it can be programmed.
      - zepto 6y ago
        > At least it can be programmed. You say that as though it was an achievement. Most smartwatches can be programmed. The pinetime is about the hardest one to develop for, with the least available resources.
        fsflover 6y ago
        > Most smartwatches can be programmed. I am not aware of any other smartwatches where you can reflash the OS.
        zepto 6y ago
        I’m not aware of any other smartwatches where you have to.
        yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
        https://www.cnx-software.com/2021/02/04/watchy-pebble-like-smartwatch-with-e-paper-display-esp32-processor/ https://www.cnx-software.com/2021/02/04/watchy-pebble-like-s... and https://www.cnx-software.com/2021/04/07/lilygo-open-smartwatch-open-source-hardware-esp32-watch-by-pauls-3d-things/ https://www.cnx-software.com/2021/04/07/lilygo-open-smartwat... come to mind
toomanyducks 6y ago
Honestly, I have no idea why I'm so surprised. This is what happens when you put desktop dev tools on an (albeit modified) desktop desktop environment on an (albeit modified) desktop operating system on a phone. Can't wait for these devices to mature!
- indymike 6y ago
  My phone has been at compute parity with my i5 Macbook air for at least the last two phones I've had. I've also been able to plug my phone in to a monitor/keyboard using the same usb-c dock I use for the air and be pretty productive in a pinch. Love the idea of having a real desktop environment instead of Android, though.
ruph123 6y ago
And of course the same goes for the PinePhone (albeit slower). I especially like that you can choose different languages for development although this is not a Librem/PinePhone feature of course.
yosito 6y ago
That's it. I'm ordering a Librem 5!
- unnouinceput 6y ago
  Let me know how much it costed you, all in all, not just the price on their site. Also when you'll get it on your hands, physically, not what they say initially on the delivery note.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- atat7024 6y ago
  Why not wait until they have a stomachable security model?
  - yosito 6y ago
    Me being in control of my own encryption keys seems like a more stomachable security model than letting Google or Apple profile me based on every single thing that happens on my device. What would you like to see in Librem's security model?
    - atat7024 6y ago
      > What would you like to see in Librem's security model? This should cover it nicely: https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices
      - seba_dos1 6y ago
        Don't waste time reading that, it's mostly wrong: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26778281 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26778281
        6y ago
kop316 6y ago
This is also true of the pinephone. My entire dev set up for for the pinephone is on my pinephone. All I do is hook up a USB cable and SSH into it (which makes testing a lot easier since mmsd needs to talk to the modem). What is really neat though is any apps that I develop on my pinephone work on the librem 5 too! Some of the bugs found and fixed on mmsd are from Librem 5 users, and I have been collaborating with the chatty dev (I assume he has a Librem 5, I'm 90% sure he is a Purism employee) with the work I do on the pinephone.
- Guest42 6y ago
  I am looking to purchase either (or both) of those phones. Would you recommend buying one of them now or waiting until a future release? It seems that both companies have extended the release dates a bit.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    If you order Librem 5 right now, you get it "in a few months", so the software will be much more mature (while hardware already is). Pine64 currently accepts preorders only for the "Beta-version" of Pinephone.
    - Guest42 6y ago
      I see. It seems as though the price tag has gone up compared to the dev versions. With that price I imagine they’d want things to be stable. I haven’t looked to see if they have a vcs or chats to see what types of issues are being addressed.
      - fsflover 6y ago
        https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#33-how-can-i-check-the-progress-of-the-librem-5s-software-development https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque...
    - hedora 6y ago
vlmutolo 6y ago
For a second, I thought, "Man is it really that slow to compile a hello-world Python GTK app?" I completely forgot he was doing this all on a phone. I'm super impressed with the state of "convergence" here. Dragging a window over from a full desktop monitor to the phone was exciting to watch. I doubt I would want to do development directly on the phone, but only because the phone is going to be underpowered compared to a desktop. But since it's just a standard linux distro on the phone, it probably wouldn't be too hard to set up the Librem to automatically pull the latest build from the desktop/laptop for testing purposes.
- reddotX 6y ago
  yawnn.. ubuntu touch had convergence 5 yeas ago, nobody cared
  - em3rgent0rdr 6y ago
    and Motorola Atrix 4G sortof had that 10 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Atrix_4G#Webtop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Atrix_4G#Webtop
    - fsflover 6y ago
      This is not the same at all. Librem 5 runs desktop apps on a phone, not making mobile apps run on a big screen.
      - chriswarbo 6y ago
        I've been doing that for about 12 years using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko I still use it every day, since it has my two-factor auth credentials (in GPG); although I transferred my SIM to a PinePhone last Christmas :)
        seba_dos1 6y ago
        GTA01 and GTA02 had no way to connect external screen though, and even if they had it it wouldn't be pleasant at all - Glamo was even too weak to drive the internal VGA screen :) But yeah - I'm working on the Librem 5 now, but I remember making my first steps in Python on the Openmoko Neo Freerunner back in 2008 while starting to contribute to SHR and it still has a special place in my heart!
akudha 6y ago
What do I need to know to develop Librem apps? Just Python?
- fsflover 6y ago
  Other languages can work too. Some tutorials: https://developer.puri.sm/Librem5/Apps/index.html https://developer.puri.sm/Librem5/Apps/index.html.
- kop316 6y ago
  Its the same as developing for a linux desktop. mmsd is written in C, and has python unit tests.
- linmob 6y ago
  There are multiple programming languages that can be used, as evidenced by the wide variety of apps listed on https://LINMOBapps.frama.io https://LINMOBapps.frama.io Besides Python there’s C, C++, Java, Go, Rust and and ... anything that has toolkit bindings basically. I plan to add the main programming languages per app in a future revision of the list.
- atat7024 6y ago
  Librem runs Progressive Web Apps.
swiley 6y ago
I'm a little annoyed it took this long to get reasonable smartphones, but I'm so glad they're finally here. --A happy pinephone user
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  You are happy with a phone that won't run an authorized Signal app, takes 5–10 seconds just to open the screen to turn wi-fi on/off on Mobian, and whose map apps are all barebones tech demos compared to OSMAnd on Android? I have a PinePhone too and occasionally hack on it, but I wouldn’t call it a "reasonable" smartphone yet when the software is still so half-baked and, unfortunately, it hasn’t succeeded in attracting very much of a dev community (as the existing devs sometimes complain). Maybe I’m so disappointed because I remember the Nokia N900. Now that was a reasonable Linux smartphone, except for the blobs.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    > phone that won't run an authorized Signal app This is a fault of the Signal developer, not of the Pinephone. > takes 5–10 seconds just to open the screen to turn wi-fi on/off on Mobian It's the beta release. It's gonna be faster with GPU acceleration AFAIK. > Maybe I’m so disappointed because I remember the Nokia N900. Now that was a reasonable Linux smartphone, except for the blobs. But how much time passed after the release until it became a reasonable smartphone? Give Pinephone some time.
    - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
      > This is a fault of the Signal developer, not of the Pinephone. Whoever’s fault it is, is immaterial. The PinePhone is still lacking as a phone for at least those who use Signal. > It's the beta release. It's gonna be faster with GPU acceleration AFAIK. Can you cite that? The problem is that Mobian's stack is based on a lot of GNOME libs that have not been optimized very much and run slow even on desktop, so GPU acceleration won’t help much. Before you mention the other available OSes on the PinePhone, UBports is obsolete, bitrotting tech. > how much time passed after the release until it became a reasonable smartphone? The N900 was a reasonable smartphone immediately upon its release, at least in terms of being responsive and having core apps and functionality that people expected at the time. Nokia had a larger team of developers working on Maemo than there are working on PinePhone OSes.
qwertox 6y ago
This is what I want. How good is the hardware?
- fsflover 6y ago
  https://forums.puri.sm/t/comparing-specs-of-upcoming-linux-phones/6827 https://forums.puri.sm/t/comparing-specs-of-upcoming-linux-p....
  - qwertox 6y ago
    Now this did turn me off. A 3GB RAM device from 2017?
    - fsflover 6y ago
      You do not need a Java VM to run apps on GNU/Linux phones (unlike on Android). It works pretty well with this RAM according to many videos.
      - qwertox 6y ago
        I don't know. If I'd buy a phone which I really could make mine, I'd love it to have a hardware which would still be well usable in about 5 years from now, even with my increased demand for resources as I expand my possibilities with the device. At least 8GB RAM for all this stuff to remain in memory. Fat Python processes collecting GPS and mobile connectivity data (like RSSI, which cell towers are nearby), storing this in a MongoDB instance on the device, collecting accelerometer data and processing+storing it, there's a lot I'd like to do.
        fsflover 6y ago
        Unfortunately such device does not currently exist. If you want it to be developed you better support the existing GNU/Linux phones... Perhaps the next Librem 5 batch "Fir" will have more RAM: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#71-what-will-be-the-changes-in-the-fir-batch-and-should-i-wait-for-it https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque... (and you can preorder it now).
zepto 6y ago
More of this, is exactly the competition Apple needs. Why doesn’t Google make an on-device Android studio?
- jbluepolarbear 6y ago
  Samsung Galaxy used to have something like this that was in the right direction, but I don’t know if they ever did anything with it.
  - himujjal 6y ago
    linux on dex? I seriously dont know why they pulled it off? I mean if they had put some effort into the whole thing, laptops would be a thing of the past. Plug your (13gb ram, 512 gb storage & powerful arm cpu) mobile to just about any display device with a keyboard and boom! You have a laptop. It was on Samsung Galaxy Note. I mean the first versions are of course not of the best quality. But in maybe 5 years, it would have be an universal feature. Alas. They discontinued the project.
- curt15 6y ago
  How does the write endurance of phone-grade flash memory compare with that of desktop SSDs?
butz 6y ago
What about web app support on Librem 5? Is it possible to add web apps to homescreen? App development using web technologies might be more accessible for developers.
- fsflover 6y ago
  Yes, it supports web apps: https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-web-apps/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-web-apps/.
- atat7024 6y ago
  According to Microsoft's actions, PWA (progressive web apps) are "officially" first class citizens: 0) https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/26/20983886/microsoft-outlook-com-pwa-progressive-web-app-install-features https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/26/20983886/microsoft-outlo... 1) https://www.windowslatest.com/2021/04/11/windows-10-taskbar-is-now-pushing-microsoft-edge-web-apps/ https://www.windowslatest.com/2021/04/11/windows-10-taskbar-... 2) https://www.xda-developers.com/microsoft-clears-air-recent-office-pwa-outcry/ https://www.xda-developers.com/microsoft-clears-air-recent-o...
eptcyka 6y ago
Had I put 600$ in the S&P500 when I ordered my Librem 5, I would have 1068$ in S&P500 shares. Now, I have occasional spam in my inbox about Librem 5 related blog posts. I expected to at least get a shipping date 2 years later. I understand the times have been tough, but nobody's told me if my order is cancelled or if it's still being worked on. I've seen some people receive their Evergreen phones. I'm OK with waiting, but being left out in the cold is starting to get to me.
- seba_dos1 6y ago
  Currently orders from the original 2017 campaign are still being fulfilled - they're all expected to be shipped by May and those people already got their shipping estimates long time ago. More recent orders should come in next few months, but there's no accurate shipping estimate for them just yet since there's a SoC shortage on the market that makes lead times fluctuate a lot at the moment. I think it's relatively safe to say that the goal is to handle the whole queue and have stock available at least by the end of the year, and if all goes well it should happen much sooner (but you can't really be sure about anything in this pandemic)
DangitBobby 6y ago
My dad is very suspicious of Google and concerned about privacy on his Android phone. Is there a Linux phone that's polished enough for the non-savvy user? Also, I have a couple of simple containerized apps that I run on my home network. Would I have any trouble running these on a Pinephone? Would love to hear from anyone with experience.
- wffurr 6y ago
  >> Is there a Linux phone that's polished enough for the non-savvy user? No.
  - Johan-bjareholt 6y ago
    As an owner of an Librem 5 I have to agree. Don't get me wrong, I really like the device but it needs a few more years to be easy to use and maybe a new hardware revision to get better performance. I get about 9 hours standby time (wifi on, modem off), at least the screen on time is pretty good.
- mattl 6y ago
  Sounds like an iPhone would be suitable then.
- Kelamir 6y ago
  You could disable Google, etc., related apps via ADB and block internet access for applications with Netguard or something. I blacklist all by default and allow only those I need. Makes for improved security.
- npteljes 6y ago
  He could try running /e/ OS, which is a fully functional Android fork, with as much Google home-phoning removed as they could.
- atat7024 6y ago
  Just have him read GrapheneOS.org, look up terms, and ask questions in the chat room until he wants a Pixel, non ironically. Google makes secure hardware!
I_am_tiberius 6y ago
Would love to be able to write apps in Typescript.
- seba_dos1 6y ago
  What's stopping you then? If you can do it on your desktop, you can also do it on the Librem 5.
  - I_am_tiberius 6y ago
    Does the IDE shown support it?
    - seba_dos1 6y ago
      I have no idea - I'm using Qt Creator on my Librem 5. For TypeScript I guess you would probably like to run something like Atom or VSCode anyway.
- azdle 6y ago
  You can, kinda: https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-web-apps/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-web-apps/
- sonnyp 6y ago
  You can. GNOME has a JavaScript binding called gjs. It runs JavaScript (with SpiderMonkey) and has support for most of GNOME APIs. https://gjs.guide/ https://gjs.guide/ https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gjs/-/blob/master/doc/Home.md https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gjs/-/blob/master/doc/Home.md
bitwize 6y ago
Imagine my excitement when I realized I could quickly develop apps for my PinePhone, on my PinePhone. 1) ssh -X in to PinePhone over usb 2) start Emacs on my desktop's X desktop 3) code it up in Tcl/Tk 4) for testing, set DISPLAY=:0 and run the script 5) Profit from rapid, iterative development right on the device!
m463 6y ago
I have a librem 5. At first I tried setting it up with a keyboard, mouse & monitor, but it was a little fiddly to get everything usable. I had a USB-C hub from a macbook with PD + ethernet + hdmi, but I couldn't get the hdmi display to sync. So I got another usb-c hub with ethernet + dp (+other ports) and that worked. amazing: my phone desktop showing up on my 4k monitor! So, that was pretty cool, but I still had a lot of fiddling to do - like which display the app comes up on, and how to switch things around. Also sometimes the display wasn't recognized when I wanted it do - I think I had to reboot with the display plugged in, because hotplug sometimes didn't work. (There have been software updates since I tried this - it may be better now). However, at the same time I ordered the second hub, I also got a $15 USB-C + PD + ethernet dongle. Turns out that was really what I wanted. Let the phone be a phone, sit there charging and ssh/scp into it from my regular system. I can access the entire filesystem. All of this really drives things home about Apple. When the iPhone came out, apple was breaking new ground, so people even accepted web apps, because before they had nothing. And with quality/security, the app store made sense. But after over a decade you realize that the apple ecosystem is more about control. Why can't I write my own apps (without asking permission/eula). Why can't I run my own apps without either signing up as a developer and paying, or renew some certificate every 7 days? Why can't I plug all the things into USB and use them? Apple has mindfully denied a lot of utility for their users. I thought maybe the mac usability would trickle over to iOS, but it seems the iOS lockdown has trickled over to the mac instead. EDIT: wait. Let me say "Thank You" to the purism folks for doing this. It took a few years, but this phone makes me really really happy. I figure in a year or two it will let normal folks happily run their lives ios/android-free.
- tediousdemise 6y ago
  So, effectively—your phone is your computer? This is awesome. This is what general purpose computing was meant to be. Marketing caused us to regress to the fragmented landscape of gimmicky special purpose devices that we have today.
  - calvinmorrison 6y ago
    On recent droids this works surprisingly well. I have a keyboard in my bag instead of my laptop now.
yepthatsreality 6y ago
Very cool demo! I can see a future where Unix/Linux machines take the pro-device market.
alvarlagerlof 6y ago
I wonder if gtk will ever go declarative
- sonnyp 6y ago
  https://developer.gnome.org/gtk4/stable/GtkBuilder.html https://developer.gnome.org/gtk4/stable/GtkBuilder.html
xrd 6y ago
I'm reading a lot of the comments here and it seems the salient argument is that this will never replace Android or iOS because this or that. 99% sure those comments are correct. But still, what gets me so hot and bothered is that it looks like purism and pine are making devices that cost almost the same as my other subsidized phone (android) AND might be a viable business EVEN IF there isn't a critical mass. Linux gets better and better every year even though it will never replace Windows or OSX. The big deal here is that we might finally have an amazing phone that gives us a complete and awesome developer experience AND respects privacy and the right to tinker fully with our phones. We've had that on the desktop but NEVER on our phones. This is a sea change that seems worth getting excited about. And it doesn't matter if that doesn't destroy or beat out the alternatives. This device will never be the marketplace where app developers try to sell my kids shitty apps. Who cares. It doesn't need to be the biggest to be interesting and incredible.
- blihp 6y ago
  That's the right attitude, IMO. Most consumers respond to polish and 'wow!' factor. The Linux desktop doesn't even provide that compared to the competition... Linux on mobile is even further behind both from a hardware and software standpoint. For those who don't care, or are at least willing to overlook the limitations, Linux phones are becoming increasingly viable and provide a number of advantages that the average consumer doesn't value. But there are those who do so there is a market for them. I don't even use my PinePhone as a phone that much... but it's a fantastic mobile computer. I'll continue to use it and be back for the 2nd gen PinePhone.
- squarefoot 6y ago
  > We've had that on the desktop but NEVER on our phones. Give it some time. We've had to wait decades to see some people starting the transition from closed desktop systems to open ones, and we aren't nowhere close even to a tenth of the Windows/Mac userbase. Mobile platforms in comparison are newborns, and the industry after learning the PC lesson now is actively fighting against Open Source software and standards by producing software that refuses to run anywhere but their platforms (Whatsapp, banking software, etc) while they spend money to tight close their terminals so they can't be reflashed with Open Source operating systems, a practice that also creates pollution related issues. Time will tell; we probably need at least 5 more years and a couple killer apps that will make a significant number of users move to an open device such as the PinePhone or the Librem 5, or what device will we have by then, so that those figures can't be ignored anymore.

295 points by ruph123 6y ago

pydry 6y ago

How easy would it be to build anbox, so you could run Android apps?

fsflover 6y ago
It already works for many apps: https://puri.sm/posts/anbox-on-the-librem-5/ https://puri.sm/posts/anbox-on-the-librem-5/.
axelthegerman 6y ago
Why do people always want to run all their Android apps?! Why not iOS and Windows apps too?? Hkw about we figure out which apps are missing and build them natively. Linux phones still need work to be opimized for the hardware, lets not add more abstractions and slow it down by emulating proprietary runtimes
- karlicoss 6y ago
  Sadly often it's necessary for various proprietary apps like banking, government apps etc
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  Because access to mainstream proprietary mobile apps is becoming increasingly necessary to function in modern society, and people know that the iOS versions are a lost cause.
  - ryukafalz 6y ago
    You're right, of course. And notably in the case of Android apps, they often also depend on Play Services and therefore require agreeing to Google's ToS. Folks: if you don't like two major tech giants having so much power, push back against requiring apps like that when you see it. This is how they get so much power. (I'm especially worried about government apps requiring Android with Play Services or iOS.)
- kop316 6y ago
  Unfortunately, this discounts apps folks depend on made by a company that they need, and that company won't build an app like that. One example could be like a banking app. One that really annoyed me was my school forced Duo Mobile on us. Duo Mobile uses HOTP, but they do not officially support third party 2FA. I was lucky some folks already reverse engineered the protocol so I could use a third party 2FA app.
- blendergeek 6y ago
  > Why do people always want to run all their Android apps? Android already has a complete set of phone-ready apps available. > Why not iOS and Windows apps too?? We already have Wine for running Windows apps.
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  > Why do people always want to run all their Android apps?! Why not iOS and Windows apps too?? Yeah, that'd be great! Unfortunately Darling isn't running GUI apps yet even for desktop apps, but the start is there. Windows apps are frequently compiled for x86, so we'd need to plug together WINE+qemu, but it should work. Windows apps also aren't designed for mobile like Android, but in many cases I'd bet it can be made to work.
admax88q 6y ago
Running anbox on Linux phone just feels like a less efficient way to run android.
- fsflover 6y ago
  > less efficient But much more secure.
  - atat7024 6y ago
    Compared to Samsung Android, sure.

SwiftyBug 6y ago

This is quite impressive. I've always found the iOS development experience very smooth, but after seeing this I'm not sure about that anymore.

jodoherty 6y ago

The key takeaway to me is that developing mobile apps for the Librem 5 on the Librem 5 is a first class development workflow. This is great. Not having to worry about setting up toolchains on a separate platform, cross-compiling, and then signing/transferring apps and running remote debugging sessions makes it easy to just build and test apps.

sneak 6y ago
No signing also means that the workflow for developing malware for the platform is exactly the same, too. :) My issue with the Apple ecosystem is not the cryptographic protections - it's with the fact that the keys aren't mine.
- simias 6y ago
  I'm not sure I understand. Crypto won't protect you from malware by itself, it just creates a chain of custody. App store apps are not secure because they're signed, they're secure because they're signed by Apple. For the librem it's just like a desktop computer, don't install software from untrusted sources, keep your stuff updated and you should be fine.
  - swiley 6y ago
    Meh, signing by Apple really doesn't mean more than Apple looked (visually) at a running instance of the app and said "eh it doesn't look like it's breaking the rules." They don't do any instrumentation and often the developers themselves don't even understand what all the binary dylibs they're including do.
    - simias 6y ago
      I don't own an Apple device myself but don't they have a pretty good track record when it comes to the security of their apps? Plus all the guidelines they've been enforcing lately when it comes to user tracking etc... At any rate my general point still stands I think, it doesn't really matter whether librem apps are signed or not, what matters is where you put your trust. I'm sure some package managers (first party or otherwise) will be able to provide a curated experience if the platform is successful, like what linux distros offer.

Netcob 6y ago

It's only a matter of time until we can develop smartwatch apps - on our smartwatch.

fsflover 6y ago
https://www.pine64.org/pinetime/ https://www.pine64.org/pinetime/
- zepto 6y ago
  Why would you post that when it clearly can’t be programmed on device?
  - fsflover 6y ago
    It shows the path to that. At least it can be programmed.
    - zepto 6y ago
      > At least it can be programmed. You say that as though it was an achievement. Most smartwatches can be programmed. The pinetime is about the hardest one to develop for, with the least available resources.
      - fsflover 6y ago
        > Most smartwatches can be programmed. I am not aware of any other smartwatches where you can reflash the OS.
        zepto 6y ago
        I’m not aware of any other smartwatches where you have to.
        yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
        https://www.cnx-software.com/2021/02/04/watchy-pebble-like-smartwatch-with-e-paper-display-esp32-processor/ https://www.cnx-software.com/2021/02/04/watchy-pebble-like-s... and https://www.cnx-software.com/2021/04/07/lilygo-open-smartwatch-open-source-hardware-esp32-watch-by-pauls-3d-things/ https://www.cnx-software.com/2021/04/07/lilygo-open-smartwat... come to mind

toomanyducks 6y ago

Honestly, I have no idea why I'm so surprised. This is what happens when you put desktop dev tools on an (albeit modified) desktop desktop environment on an (albeit modified) desktop operating system on a phone. Can't wait for these devices to mature!

indymike 6y ago
My phone has been at compute parity with my i5 Macbook air for at least the last two phones I've had. I've also been able to plug my phone in to a monitor/keyboard using the same usb-c dock I use for the air and be pretty productive in a pinch. Love the idea of having a real desktop environment instead of Android, though.

ruph123 6y ago

And of course the same goes for the PinePhone (albeit slower). I especially like that you can choose different languages for development although this is not a Librem/PinePhone feature of course.

yosito 6y ago

That's it. I'm ordering a Librem 5!

unnouinceput 6y ago
Let me know how much it costed you, all in all, not just the price on their site. Also when you'll get it on your hands, physically, not what they say initially on the delivery note.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
atat7024 6y ago
Why not wait until they have a stomachable security model?
- yosito 6y ago
  Me being in control of my own encryption keys seems like a more stomachable security model than letting Google or Apple profile me based on every single thing that happens on my device. What would you like to see in Librem's security model?
  - atat7024 6y ago
    > What would you like to see in Librem's security model? This should cover it nicely: https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices
    - seba_dos1 6y ago
      Don't waste time reading that, it's mostly wrong: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26778281 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26778281
      - 6y ago

kop316 6y ago

This is also true of the pinephone. My entire dev set up for for the pinephone is on my pinephone. All I do is hook up a USB cable and SSH into it (which makes testing a lot easier since mmsd needs to talk to the modem). What is really neat though is any apps that I develop on my pinephone work on the librem 5 too! Some of the bugs found and fixed on mmsd are from Librem 5 users, and I have been collaborating with the chatty dev (I assume he has a Librem 5, I'm 90% sure he is a Purism employee) with the work I do on the pinephone.

Guest42 6y ago
I am looking to purchase either (or both) of those phones. Would you recommend buying one of them now or waiting until a future release? It seems that both companies have extended the release dates a bit.
- fsflover 6y ago
  If you order Librem 5 right now, you get it "in a few months", so the software will be much more mature (while hardware already is). Pine64 currently accepts preorders only for the "Beta-version" of Pinephone.
  - Guest42 6y ago
    I see. It seems as though the price tag has gone up compared to the dev versions. With that price I imagine they’d want things to be stable. I haven’t looked to see if they have a vcs or chats to see what types of issues are being addressed.
    - fsflover 6y ago
      https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#33-how-can-i-check-the-progress-of-the-librem-5s-software-development https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque...
  - hedora 6y ago

vlmutolo 6y ago

For a second, I thought, "Man is it really that slow to compile a hello-world Python GTK app?" I completely forgot he was doing this all on a phone. I'm super impressed with the state of "convergence" here. Dragging a window over from a full desktop monitor to the phone was exciting to watch. I doubt I would want to do development directly on the phone, but only because the phone is going to be underpowered compared to a desktop. But since it's just a standard linux distro on the phone, it probably wouldn't be too hard to set up the Librem to automatically pull the latest build from the desktop/laptop for testing purposes.

reddotX 6y ago
yawnn.. ubuntu touch had convergence 5 yeas ago, nobody cared
- em3rgent0rdr 6y ago
  and Motorola Atrix 4G sortof had that 10 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Atrix_4G#Webtop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Atrix_4G#Webtop
  - fsflover 6y ago
    This is not the same at all. Librem 5 runs desktop apps on a phone, not making mobile apps run on a big screen.
    - chriswarbo 6y ago
      I've been doing that for about 12 years using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko I still use it every day, since it has my two-factor auth credentials (in GPG); although I transferred my SIM to a PinePhone last Christmas :)
      - seba_dos1 6y ago
        GTA01 and GTA02 had no way to connect external screen though, and even if they had it it wouldn't be pleasant at all - Glamo was even too weak to drive the internal VGA screen :) But yeah - I'm working on the Librem 5 now, but I remember making my first steps in Python on the Openmoko Neo Freerunner back in 2008 while starting to contribute to SHR and it still has a special place in my heart!

akudha 6y ago

What do I need to know to develop Librem apps? Just Python?

fsflover 6y ago
Other languages can work too. Some tutorials: https://developer.puri.sm/Librem5/Apps/index.html https://developer.puri.sm/Librem5/Apps/index.html.
kop316 6y ago
Its the same as developing for a linux desktop. mmsd is written in C, and has python unit tests.
linmob 6y ago
There are multiple programming languages that can be used, as evidenced by the wide variety of apps listed on https://LINMOBapps.frama.io https://LINMOBapps.frama.io Besides Python there’s C, C++, Java, Go, Rust and and ... anything that has toolkit bindings basically. I plan to add the main programming languages per app in a future revision of the list.
atat7024 6y ago
Librem runs Progressive Web Apps.

swiley 6y ago

I'm a little annoyed it took this long to get reasonable smartphones, but I'm so glad they're finally here. --A happy pinephone user

Mediterraneo10 6y ago
You are happy with a phone that won't run an authorized Signal app, takes 5–10 seconds just to open the screen to turn wi-fi on/off on Mobian, and whose map apps are all barebones tech demos compared to OSMAnd on Android? I have a PinePhone too and occasionally hack on it, but I wouldn’t call it a "reasonable" smartphone yet when the software is still so half-baked and, unfortunately, it hasn’t succeeded in attracting very much of a dev community (as the existing devs sometimes complain). Maybe I’m so disappointed because I remember the Nokia N900. Now that was a reasonable Linux smartphone, except for the blobs.
- fsflover 6y ago
  > phone that won't run an authorized Signal app This is a fault of the Signal developer, not of the Pinephone. > takes 5–10 seconds just to open the screen to turn wi-fi on/off on Mobian It's the beta release. It's gonna be faster with GPU acceleration AFAIK. > Maybe I’m so disappointed because I remember the Nokia N900. Now that was a reasonable Linux smartphone, except for the blobs. But how much time passed after the release until it became a reasonable smartphone? Give Pinephone some time.
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    > This is a fault of the Signal developer, not of the Pinephone. Whoever’s fault it is, is immaterial. The PinePhone is still lacking as a phone for at least those who use Signal. > It's the beta release. It's gonna be faster with GPU acceleration AFAIK. Can you cite that? The problem is that Mobian's stack is based on a lot of GNOME libs that have not been optimized very much and run slow even on desktop, so GPU acceleration won’t help much. Before you mention the other available OSes on the PinePhone, UBports is obsolete, bitrotting tech. > how much time passed after the release until it became a reasonable smartphone? The N900 was a reasonable smartphone immediately upon its release, at least in terms of being responsive and having core apps and functionality that people expected at the time. Nokia had a larger team of developers working on Maemo than there are working on PinePhone OSes.

qwertox 6y ago

This is what I want. How good is the hardware?

fsflover 6y ago
https://forums.puri.sm/t/comparing-specs-of-upcoming-linux-phones/6827 https://forums.puri.sm/t/comparing-specs-of-upcoming-linux-p....
- qwertox 6y ago
  Now this did turn me off. A 3GB RAM device from 2017?
  - fsflover 6y ago
    You do not need a Java VM to run apps on GNU/Linux phones (unlike on Android). It works pretty well with this RAM according to many videos.
    - qwertox 6y ago
      I don't know. If I'd buy a phone which I really could make mine, I'd love it to have a hardware which would still be well usable in about 5 years from now, even with my increased demand for resources as I expand my possibilities with the device. At least 8GB RAM for all this stuff to remain in memory. Fat Python processes collecting GPS and mobile connectivity data (like RSSI, which cell towers are nearby), storing this in a MongoDB instance on the device, collecting accelerometer data and processing+storing it, there's a lot I'd like to do.
      - fsflover 6y ago
        Unfortunately such device does not currently exist. If you want it to be developed you better support the existing GNU/Linux phones... Perhaps the next Librem 5 batch "Fir" will have more RAM: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#71-what-will-be-the-changes-in-the-fir-batch-and-should-i-wait-for-it https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque... (and you can preorder it now).

zepto 6y ago

More of this, is exactly the competition Apple needs. Why doesn’t Google make an on-device Android studio?

jbluepolarbear 6y ago
Samsung Galaxy used to have something like this that was in the right direction, but I don’t know if they ever did anything with it.
- himujjal 6y ago
  linux on dex? I seriously dont know why they pulled it off? I mean if they had put some effort into the whole thing, laptops would be a thing of the past. Plug your (13gb ram, 512 gb storage & powerful arm cpu) mobile to just about any display device with a keyboard and boom! You have a laptop. It was on Samsung Galaxy Note. I mean the first versions are of course not of the best quality. But in maybe 5 years, it would have be an universal feature. Alas. They discontinued the project.
curt15 6y ago
How does the write endurance of phone-grade flash memory compare with that of desktop SSDs?

butz 6y ago

What about web app support on Librem 5? Is it possible to add web apps to homescreen? App development using web technologies might be more accessible for developers.

fsflover 6y ago
Yes, it supports web apps: https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-web-apps/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-web-apps/.
atat7024 6y ago
According to Microsoft's actions, PWA (progressive web apps) are "officially" first class citizens: 0) https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/26/20983886/microsoft-outlook-com-pwa-progressive-web-app-install-features https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/26/20983886/microsoft-outlo... 1) https://www.windowslatest.com/2021/04/11/windows-10-taskbar-is-now-pushing-microsoft-edge-web-apps/ https://www.windowslatest.com/2021/04/11/windows-10-taskbar-... 2) https://www.xda-developers.com/microsoft-clears-air-recent-office-pwa-outcry/ https://www.xda-developers.com/microsoft-clears-air-recent-o...

eptcyka 6y ago

Had I put 600$ in the S&P500 when I ordered my Librem 5, I would have 1068$ in S&P500 shares. Now, I have occasional spam in my inbox about Librem 5 related blog posts. I expected to at least get a shipping date 2 years later. I understand the times have been tough, but nobody's told me if my order is cancelled or if it's still being worked on. I've seen some people receive their Evergreen phones. I'm OK with waiting, but being left out in the cold is starting to get to me.

seba_dos1 6y ago
Currently orders from the original 2017 campaign are still being fulfilled - they're all expected to be shipped by May and those people already got their shipping estimates long time ago. More recent orders should come in next few months, but there's no accurate shipping estimate for them just yet since there's a SoC shortage on the market that makes lead times fluctuate a lot at the moment. I think it's relatively safe to say that the goal is to handle the whole queue and have stock available at least by the end of the year, and if all goes well it should happen much sooner (but you can't really be sure about anything in this pandemic)

DangitBobby 6y ago

My dad is very suspicious of Google and concerned about privacy on his Android phone. Is there a Linux phone that's polished enough for the non-savvy user? Also, I have a couple of simple containerized apps that I run on my home network. Would I have any trouble running these on a Pinephone? Would love to hear from anyone with experience.

wffurr 6y ago
>> Is there a Linux phone that's polished enough for the non-savvy user? No.
- Johan-bjareholt 6y ago
  As an owner of an Librem 5 I have to agree. Don't get me wrong, I really like the device but it needs a few more years to be easy to use and maybe a new hardware revision to get better performance. I get about 9 hours standby time (wifi on, modem off), at least the screen on time is pretty good.
mattl 6y ago
Sounds like an iPhone would be suitable then.
Kelamir 6y ago
You could disable Google, etc., related apps via ADB and block internet access for applications with Netguard or something. I blacklist all by default and allow only those I need. Makes for improved security.
npteljes 6y ago
He could try running /e/ OS, which is a fully functional Android fork, with as much Google home-phoning removed as they could.
atat7024 6y ago
Just have him read GrapheneOS.org, look up terms, and ask questions in the chat room until he wants a Pixel, non ironically. Google makes secure hardware!

I_am_tiberius 6y ago

Would love to be able to write apps in Typescript.

seba_dos1 6y ago
What's stopping you then? If you can do it on your desktop, you can also do it on the Librem 5.
- I_am_tiberius 6y ago
  Does the IDE shown support it?
  - seba_dos1 6y ago
    I have no idea - I'm using Qt Creator on my Librem 5. For TypeScript I guess you would probably like to run something like Atom or VSCode anyway.
azdle 6y ago
You can, kinda: https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-web-apps/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-web-apps/
sonnyp 6y ago
You can. GNOME has a JavaScript binding called gjs. It runs JavaScript (with SpiderMonkey) and has support for most of GNOME APIs. https://gjs.guide/ https://gjs.guide/ https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gjs/-/blob/master/doc/Home.md https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gjs/-/blob/master/doc/Home.md

bitwize 6y ago

Imagine my excitement when I realized I could quickly develop apps for my PinePhone, on my PinePhone. 1) ssh -X in to PinePhone over usb 2) start Emacs on my desktop's X desktop 3) code it up in Tcl/Tk 4) for testing, set DISPLAY=:0 and run the script 5) Profit from rapid, iterative development right on the device!

m463 6y ago

I have a librem 5. At first I tried setting it up with a keyboard, mouse & monitor, but it was a little fiddly to get everything usable. I had a USB-C hub from a macbook with PD + ethernet + hdmi, but I couldn't get the hdmi display to sync. So I got another usb-c hub with ethernet + dp (+other ports) and that worked. amazing: my phone desktop showing up on my 4k monitor! So, that was pretty cool, but I still had a lot of fiddling to do - like which display the app comes up on, and how to switch things around. Also sometimes the display wasn't recognized when I wanted it do - I think I had to reboot with the display plugged in, because hotplug sometimes didn't work. (There have been software updates since I tried this - it may be better now). However, at the same time I ordered the second hub, I also got a $15 USB-C + PD + ethernet dongle. Turns out that was really what I wanted. Let the phone be a phone, sit there charging and ssh/scp into it from my regular system. I can access the entire filesystem. All of this really drives things home about Apple. When the iPhone came out, apple was breaking new ground, so people even accepted web apps, because before they had nothing. And with quality/security, the app store made sense. But after over a decade you realize that the apple ecosystem is more about control. Why can't I write my own apps (without asking permission/eula). Why can't I run my own apps without either signing up as a developer and paying, or renew some certificate every 7 days? Why can't I plug all the things into USB and use them? Apple has mindfully denied a lot of utility for their users. I thought maybe the mac usability would trickle over to iOS, but it seems the iOS lockdown has trickled over to the mac instead. EDIT: wait. Let me say "Thank You" to the purism folks for doing this. It took a few years, but this phone makes me really really happy. I figure in a year or two it will let normal folks happily run their lives ios/android-free.

tediousdemise 6y ago
So, effectively—your phone is your computer? This is awesome. This is what general purpose computing was meant to be. Marketing caused us to regress to the fragmented landscape of gimmicky special purpose devices that we have today.
- calvinmorrison 6y ago
  On recent droids this works surprisingly well. I have a keyboard in my bag instead of my laptop now.

yepthatsreality 6y ago

Very cool demo! I can see a future where Unix/Linux machines take the pro-device market.

alvarlagerlof 6y ago

I wonder if gtk will ever go declarative

sonnyp 6y ago
https://developer.gnome.org/gtk4/stable/GtkBuilder.html https://developer.gnome.org/gtk4/stable/GtkBuilder.html

xrd 6y ago

I'm reading a lot of the comments here and it seems the salient argument is that this will never replace Android or iOS because this or that. 99% sure those comments are correct. But still, what gets me so hot and bothered is that it looks like purism and pine are making devices that cost almost the same as my other subsidized phone (android) AND might be a viable business EVEN IF there isn't a critical mass. Linux gets better and better every year even though it will never replace Windows or OSX. The big deal here is that we might finally have an amazing phone that gives us a complete and awesome developer experience AND respects privacy and the right to tinker fully with our phones. We've had that on the desktop but NEVER on our phones. This is a sea change that seems worth getting excited about. And it doesn't matter if that doesn't destroy or beat out the alternatives. This device will never be the marketplace where app developers try to sell my kids shitty apps. Who cares. It doesn't need to be the biggest to be interesting and incredible.

blihp 6y ago
That's the right attitude, IMO. Most consumers respond to polish and 'wow!' factor. The Linux desktop doesn't even provide that compared to the competition... Linux on mobile is even further behind both from a hardware and software standpoint. For those who don't care, or are at least willing to overlook the limitations, Linux phones are becoming increasingly viable and provide a number of advantages that the average consumer doesn't value. But there are those who do so there is a market for them. I don't even use my PinePhone as a phone that much... but it's a fantastic mobile computer. I'll continue to use it and be back for the 2nd gen PinePhone.
squarefoot 6y ago
> We've had that on the desktop but NEVER on our phones. Give it some time. We've had to wait decades to see some people starting the transition from closed desktop systems to open ones, and we aren't nowhere close even to a tenth of the Windows/Mac userbase. Mobile platforms in comparison are newborns, and the industry after learning the PC lesson now is actively fighting against Open Source software and standards by producing software that refuses to run anywhere but their platforms (Whatsapp, banking software, etc) while they spend money to tight close their terminals so they can't be reflashed with Open Source operating systems, a practice that also creates pollution related issues. Time will tell; we probably need at least 5 more years and a couple killer apps that will make a significant number of users move to an open device such as the PinePhone or the Librem 5, or what device will we have by then, so that those figures can't be ignored anymore.