3 ms·

The best programmers I know never had a portfolio.

by spdionis 6y ago

barry-cotter 6y ago
What? The best programmers you know got that way without accumulating a body of work?
- yuliyp 6y ago
  Different people have different ways of learning and working. Some people build a bunch of stuff. Others build toys, others may just focus on their primary jobs and don't have a portfolio of things they can share.
  - barry-cotter 6y ago
    All of those qualify as a body of work. The last one isn’t a body of work you can share but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
    - jfrunyon 6y ago
      You are the one who said body of work, the other person said portfolio. Stuff that you can't share isn't a portfolio.
      - lmeyerov 6y ago
        most students don't work on classified fbi projects, see in the thread on some of the projects I've seen undergrads involved in that are more demonstrative than grades. a project portfolio is just a cv section that focuses on the projects and your involvement, and hopefully ways for the interviewer to see it and the code, but even descriptions and screenshots go far for the interview conversation. most good cs programs have significant project components, and students not putting in their project time there are often doing so elsewhere. if not, they may have the potential to be good at projects, but tbd. without other strong signals, probably fewer startups are in a good position to take that bet. also, going beyond students, the top programmers I've worked with have a history of great public and private projects - papers, $100B companies, top frameworks, launched top products, record breaking results, news articles around their impact, etc. The main exceptions are 'lifer at apple' types and 'works at secret bank', but most hop jobs enough that it's not an issue. A top group I see that really struggle a lot are 'lifer at secret gov agency x', which gets many of them stuck in the defense contractor round door. we may have different experiences for what top means and what they help achieve. Who is this silent majority of top 1% programmers that don't have any referenceable projects? And more to the point, top intern candidates?
        jfrunyon 5y ago
        Many of the best programmers I know never went to school for programming.
lmeyerov 6y ago
portfolios = projects they can reference if they don't have impressive projects.. maybe not so good? when i think of the best cs ugrads i've known, and would be great at startups: * cool projects outside of classes, especially self-initiated, like doing their own startups * cool libraries or algs that got popular or, not quite as good, published * hardcore mode attempts at class projects, e.g., well beyond extra mile for OS's + graphics, or took grad-level courses for the same (=> w/ accompanying projecs), or new to CS and are proud at winning some class competitions despite that it changes outside of cs
- tester756 6y ago
  >if they don't have impressive projects.. maybe not so good? lol, you realize that for I'd say almost all projects the interesting part/core is small % of the whole, meanwhile the rest is just boring code that needs to be done? ofc it's not the nicest thing that you arent completing your side projects and just doing the interesting stuff, but you may have experience in industry, so you know how to do that boring ass stuff anyway
  - lmeyerov 6y ago
    Interestingness helps but not the point Startup conditions are chaotic and every new person takes management + training overhead. Internship applicants who have well-done and challenging projects have shown the energy, self-management, know-how, & self-learning to get projects done in mini-versions of these conditions. So every hour spent on them goes a lot further, and both sides benefit more. Conversely, if someone can't get their projects done, the projects are too low quality for where it matters, or their skill are on too-different of a thing, at best, it's non-evidence. So you'll have to fall back to evaluating weaker signals like grades. At worst, lacking or failing at projects is a red flag that they'll struggle on the adult-sized projects as well. For 'interestingness', probably more relevant is 'tied to the mission', but I think being youthful covers 80% of that for intern-level folks. Failure to figure out fit may mean everyone loses. Interns are more about recruitment pipeline for companies, and I'm not sure that's the wisest way to solve that for a lot of startups if that's the goal. Likewise, startups not ready to invest in their interns (management overhead, training, etc.), or fail to screen for a good match in skills, can easily be a bad experience and opportunity cost for the students, who may have had a more pleasant, productive, and rewarding experience at a more mature company.

The best programmers I know never had a portfolio.

barry-cotter 6y ago

What? The best programmers you know got that way without accumulating a body of work?

yuliyp 6y ago
Different people have different ways of learning and working. Some people build a bunch of stuff. Others build toys, others may just focus on their primary jobs and don't have a portfolio of things they can share.
- barry-cotter 6y ago
  All of those qualify as a body of work. The last one isn’t a body of work you can share but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
  - jfrunyon 6y ago
    You are the one who said body of work, the other person said portfolio. Stuff that you can't share isn't a portfolio.
    - lmeyerov 6y ago
      most students don't work on classified fbi projects, see in the thread on some of the projects I've seen undergrads involved in that are more demonstrative than grades. a project portfolio is just a cv section that focuses on the projects and your involvement, and hopefully ways for the interviewer to see it and the code, but even descriptions and screenshots go far for the interview conversation. most good cs programs have significant project components, and students not putting in their project time there are often doing so elsewhere. if not, they may have the potential to be good at projects, but tbd. without other strong signals, probably fewer startups are in a good position to take that bet. also, going beyond students, the top programmers I've worked with have a history of great public and private projects - papers, $100B companies, top frameworks, launched top products, record breaking results, news articles around their impact, etc. The main exceptions are 'lifer at apple' types and 'works at secret bank', but most hop jobs enough that it's not an issue. A top group I see that really struggle a lot are 'lifer at secret gov agency x', which gets many of them stuck in the defense contractor round door. we may have different experiences for what top means and what they help achieve. Who is this silent majority of top 1% programmers that don't have any referenceable projects? And more to the point, top intern candidates?
      - jfrunyon 5y ago
        Many of the best programmers I know never went to school for programming.

lmeyerov 6y ago

portfolios = projects they can reference if they don't have impressive projects.. maybe not so good? when i think of the best cs ugrads i've known, and would be great at startups: * cool projects outside of classes, especially self-initiated, like doing their own startups * cool libraries or algs that got popular or, not quite as good, published * hardcore mode attempts at class projects, e.g., well beyond extra mile for OS's + graphics, or took grad-level courses for the same (=> w/ accompanying projecs), or new to CS and are proud at winning some class competitions despite that it changes outside of cs

tester756 6y ago
>if they don't have impressive projects.. maybe not so good? lol, you realize that for I'd say almost all projects the interesting part/core is small % of the whole, meanwhile the rest is just boring code that needs to be done? ofc it's not the nicest thing that you arent completing your side projects and just doing the interesting stuff, but you may have experience in industry, so you know how to do that boring ass stuff anyway
- lmeyerov 6y ago
  Interestingness helps but not the point Startup conditions are chaotic and every new person takes management + training overhead. Internship applicants who have well-done and challenging projects have shown the energy, self-management, know-how, & self-learning to get projects done in mini-versions of these conditions. So every hour spent on them goes a lot further, and both sides benefit more. Conversely, if someone can't get their projects done, the projects are too low quality for where it matters, or their skill are on too-different of a thing, at best, it's non-evidence. So you'll have to fall back to evaluating weaker signals like grades. At worst, lacking or failing at projects is a red flag that they'll struggle on the adult-sized projects as well. For 'interestingness', probably more relevant is 'tied to the mission', but I think being youthful covers 80% of that for intern-level folks. Failure to figure out fit may mean everyone loses. Interns are more about recruitment pipeline for companies, and I'm not sure that's the wisest way to solve that for a lot of startups if that's the goal. Likewise, startups not ready to invest in their interns (management overhead, training, etc.), or fail to screen for a good match in skills, can easily be a bad experience and opportunity cost for the students, who may have had a more pleasant, productive, and rewarding experience at a more mature company.