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Imagine if instead the same number of people would consume heroine or LSD or other similar drugs at that level, as several people here are advocating for. Do yo

Imagine if instead the same number of people would consume heroine or LSD or other similar drugs at that level, as several people here are advocating for. Do you think that the human race would have any chance of survival?

arcticbull 6y ago
LSD and other psychedelics actually have incredibly low harm potential. They're usually at the absolute very bottom of any harm chart. In fact, mushrooms and LSD are the two least harmful recreational drugs per the Economist chart from 2010. Number 1 is alcohol and number 2 is heroin and crack. Meth is a pretty distant 4th. [1] They're not addictive, in no small part because they're not really "fun" in the classic way cocaine is. They're interesting, but you're really not in a hurry to do them again. Further, the LD-50 is really, really, really high. [1] https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/06/25/what-is-the-most-dangerous-drug https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/06/25/what-is-...
heavyset_go 6y ago
Sounds like a strawman argument to me. I don't see anyone advocating that people do heroin as much as they ingest alcohol. LSD and other 5-HT2A agonists are self-limiting in that they induce a massive tolerance after a single dose, making subsequent doses either not work or give diminished effects that do not increase with increased doses. They also are not physically addictive like alcohol is, nor does LSD cause organ damage like alcohol does. Beyond overdoses, opioids, other than ones like MPTP, don't cause physical harm to the body like alcohol does. The dangers of heroin come mostly from its criminalization, the criminalization of addiction and the lack of access to healthcare to treat addiction. For example, there are millions of people who take Suboxone, a long acting and powerful opioid that stays in the blood for 30+ days, without it causing organ damage or seizure disorders. Street heroin is dangerous because it is unregulated and often cut with fentanyl and stuff that should not be going into veins. The issues surrounding heroin would be solved with a regulated supply of clean heroin, medical support to administer it correctly, addiction treatment and making all of those things accessible and affordable to the people who need it most. There are several examples of governments that provide all of these things, and they indeed cut down on heroin's mortality and the devastating effects of addiction. Similar to the person I know with heart disease from alcohol, I know a former heroin addict who also has heart disease from their use. Their heart problem was not caused by heroin, but by the fact that they'd crush pills and inject them without properly filtering them, and the pill binders caused heart damage. A clean supply of heroin and access to addiction treatment would have prevented their heart problem.
- klyrs 6y ago
  Nobody will advocate it, no, but there's a significant set of the population with self destructive tendencies. They're gonna use what they can get their hands on, and lots of whatever it is. I know a few folks who have taken tens of tabs of acid, and every single one was traumatized by the experience; some were incapacitated for months or years following. I'm in favor of universal legalization, but it's definitely worth considering the impact to everybody, not just the people who use drugs responsibly
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    > Nobody will advocate it, no, but there's a significant set of the population with self destructive tendencies. They're gonna use what they can get their hands on, and lots of whatever it is. I know a few folks who have taken tens of tabs of acid, and every single one was traumatized by the experience; some were incapacitated for months or years following. When I was in high school and college, kids would regularly get alcohol poisoning and need medical attention. Some of them would drink, drive and die. People like this will exist whether or not it's legal for them to consume whatever substance they're abusing. > I'm in favor of universal legalization, but it's definitely worth considering the impact to everybody, not just the people who use drugs responsibly Criminalization isn't going to stop these people, and even if their use leaves them unscathed, the justice system can impose lifelong negative consequences on them. This is why I'm in favor of funding real drug education so people can make informed decisions, healthcare so people can get help if their use affects their heath, and legalization so that lives aren't ruined by legal consequences.
- Cullinet 6y ago
  Suboxone is the trademark name of a eponymous mix of the inhibitor Naloxone added to Buprenorphine. Many formulations contain small enough amounts of Naloxone to permit a addict to take opiates without any significant adverse effects within a few hours. The reason why people use the name synonymously is because Buprenorphine is a Mu Kappa Delta antagonist with sufficiently higher affinity to those receptors making it very much harder for other opiods to bind preferentially. Slow release formulation and slow linear bioavailability decline profiles suffice to do the rest of the job of making say heroin ineffective if the patient takes anything else. I'm saying this so no one is under any impression that Suboxone is a safe drug for anyone to take (accidentally or otherwise) and off the top of my head a commonly used 8mg dose is roughly 100mg Morphine equivalent. https://www.gloshospitals.nhs.uk/gps/treatment-guidelines/opioid-equivalence-chart/ https://www.gloshospitals.nhs.uk/gps/treatment-guidelines/op...

arcticbull 6y ago

LSD and other psychedelics actually have incredibly low harm potential. They're usually at the absolute very bottom of any harm chart. In fact, mushrooms and LSD are the two least harmful recreational drugs per the Economist chart from 2010. Number 1 is alcohol and number 2 is heroin and crack. Meth is a pretty distant 4th. [1] They're not addictive, in no small part because they're not really "fun" in the classic way cocaine is. They're interesting, but you're really not in a hurry to do them again. Further, the LD-50 is really, really, really high. [1] https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/06/25/what-is-the-most-dangerous-drug https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/06/25/what-is-...

heavyset_go 6y ago

Sounds like a strawman argument to me. I don't see anyone advocating that people do heroin as much as they ingest alcohol. LSD and other 5-HT2A agonists are self-limiting in that they induce a massive tolerance after a single dose, making subsequent doses either not work or give diminished effects that do not increase with increased doses. They also are not physically addictive like alcohol is, nor does LSD cause organ damage like alcohol does. Beyond overdoses, opioids, other than ones like MPTP, don't cause physical harm to the body like alcohol does. The dangers of heroin come mostly from its criminalization, the criminalization of addiction and the lack of access to healthcare to treat addiction. For example, there are millions of people who take Suboxone, a long acting and powerful opioid that stays in the blood for 30+ days, without it causing organ damage or seizure disorders. Street heroin is dangerous because it is unregulated and often cut with fentanyl and stuff that should not be going into veins. The issues surrounding heroin would be solved with a regulated supply of clean heroin, medical support to administer it correctly, addiction treatment and making all of those things accessible and affordable to the people who need it most. There are several examples of governments that provide all of these things, and they indeed cut down on heroin's mortality and the devastating effects of addiction. Similar to the person I know with heart disease from alcohol, I know a former heroin addict who also has heart disease from their use. Their heart problem was not caused by heroin, but by the fact that they'd crush pills and inject them without properly filtering them, and the pill binders caused heart damage. A clean supply of heroin and access to addiction treatment would have prevented their heart problem.

klyrs 6y ago
Nobody will advocate it, no, but there's a significant set of the population with self destructive tendencies. They're gonna use what they can get their hands on, and lots of whatever it is. I know a few folks who have taken tens of tabs of acid, and every single one was traumatized by the experience; some were incapacitated for months or years following. I'm in favor of universal legalization, but it's definitely worth considering the impact to everybody, not just the people who use drugs responsibly
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  > Nobody will advocate it, no, but there's a significant set of the population with self destructive tendencies. They're gonna use what they can get their hands on, and lots of whatever it is. I know a few folks who have taken tens of tabs of acid, and every single one was traumatized by the experience; some were incapacitated for months or years following. When I was in high school and college, kids would regularly get alcohol poisoning and need medical attention. Some of them would drink, drive and die. People like this will exist whether or not it's legal for them to consume whatever substance they're abusing. > I'm in favor of universal legalization, but it's definitely worth considering the impact to everybody, not just the people who use drugs responsibly Criminalization isn't going to stop these people, and even if their use leaves them unscathed, the justice system can impose lifelong negative consequences on them. This is why I'm in favor of funding real drug education so people can make informed decisions, healthcare so people can get help if their use affects their heath, and legalization so that lives aren't ruined by legal consequences.
Cullinet 6y ago
Suboxone is the trademark name of a eponymous mix of the inhibitor Naloxone added to Buprenorphine. Many formulations contain small enough amounts of Naloxone to permit a addict to take opiates without any significant adverse effects within a few hours. The reason why people use the name synonymously is because Buprenorphine is a Mu Kappa Delta antagonist with sufficiently higher affinity to those receptors making it very much harder for other opiods to bind preferentially. Slow release formulation and slow linear bioavailability decline profiles suffice to do the rest of the job of making say heroin ineffective if the patient takes anything else. I'm saying this so no one is under any impression that Suboxone is a safe drug for anyone to take (accidentally or otherwise) and off the top of my head a commonly used 8mg dose is roughly 100mg Morphine equivalent. https://www.gloshospitals.nhs.uk/gps/treatment-guidelines/opioid-equivalence-chart/ https://www.gloshospitals.nhs.uk/gps/treatment-guidelines/op...