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For anyone unfamiliar David Nutt is the drug researcher responsible for this informative chart https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Development_of_a_rational_sc

by rcpt 6y ago

For anyone unfamiliar David Nutt is the drug researcher responsible for this informative chart https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Development_of_a_rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_of_potential_misuse_(physical_harm_and_dependence,_NA_free_means).svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Development_of_a_ration... He was chairman of the UKs Advisory Council on Misuse of Drugs for seven years until his dismissal for advocating that that illicit drugs should be classified according to the actual evidence of the harm they cause. In Nutts ranking, alcohol and tobacco were more harmful than LSD, ecstasy or cannabis and should thus be subject to stricter regulations.

S_A_P 6y ago
Its kind of interesting to see which substances people wont give up vs what is seen as a 'menace to society'. Plotted on a graph I suspect we would see Alcohol and Opiates closer together than many other drugs. On the other hand, drinking alcohol is human tradition dating back thousands of years- how do you unwind this? Do we really want to regulate alcohol more strictly? The last time the US tried that it backfired as bad or worse as the war on drugs.
- rcpt 6y ago
  Opium goes back thousands of years to. Honestly I don't know how it came to be demonized.
root_axis 6y ago
Seems somewhat oversimplified. It's much easier to "overdose" on LSD or MDMA than tobacco or alcohol. Additionally, frequent use of LSD and MDMA have pretty severe health consequences much sooner than frequent use of tobacco or alcohol. I'd also add that LSD poses a similar driving hazard to alcohol. On the other hand, tobacco and alcohol don't have any therapeutic qualities unlike MDMA and LSD. Personally. I think alcohol's harm is amplified by its prevalence throughout society, if one could buy MDMA and LSD at every shop and venue it'd be a disaster on par or worse than alcohol. edit: adding some sources https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0007091217350845 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000709121... https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medicine/article/paradoxical-psychological-effects-of-lysergic-acid-diethylamide-lsd/FA7A234B809A951253AF5C29AC79CA4A https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medici...
- woopwoop 6y ago
  As far as I know, there are literally no deaths attributable to LSD overdose. It is safe (if only in the sense of acute poisoning) to take even at much higher than the typical dose. On the other hand, thousands of people die of alcohol poisoning in the United States every year.
  - anaerobicover 6y ago
    You can't meaningfully compare absolute numbers there, though, given the huge disparity in availability and perception. (LSD is "special" in a way alcohol is not: people may be more likely to be cautious when using it.)
    - woopwoop 6y ago
      But I think the LSD number is literally zero, ever.
- tayo42 6y ago
  You have a source on this? Mdma and lsd are pretty self regulating. mdma will just stop working and lsd likely will just kick your ass sooner or later. opiates and alcohol can be insidious addictions that become normal parts of your life.
- ssijak 6y ago
  Lsd and mdma build up tolerance quite fast and have crosstolerance between each other. Also, almost zero people take lsd and drive. And lsd is anti addictive in general.
The_rationalist 6y ago
This chart clearly is incomplete. The dimension of tolerance is missing. Can I really take a Xanax every weekend and consistently feel as good as my first time with it? And not feel bad the other days of the week? (the same way as alcohol) If so then I guess everybody should trade Alcohol for Xanax, is that so simple? Also Khat is the best on this chart yet I believe that it makes you feel extremely tired the next day. That being said the topic is really interesting and I am looking forward to a better rational chart.
- TheCoelacanth 6y ago
  > I guess everybody should trade Alcohol for Xanax Benzodiazepines are at virtually the same position on the chart that alcohol is, so I don't think the chart should be viewed as an endorsement for switching. They are of roughly the same level of danger, but that doesn't mean that they are dangerous in exactly the same ways.

by rcpt 6y ago

S_A_P 6y ago

Its kind of interesting to see which substances people wont give up vs what is seen as a 'menace to society'. Plotted on a graph I suspect we would see Alcohol and Opiates closer together than many other drugs. On the other hand, drinking alcohol is human tradition dating back thousands of years- how do you unwind this? Do we really want to regulate alcohol more strictly? The last time the US tried that it backfired as bad or worse as the war on drugs.

rcpt 6y ago
Opium goes back thousands of years to. Honestly I don't know how it came to be demonized.

root_axis 6y ago

Seems somewhat oversimplified. It's much easier to "overdose" on LSD or MDMA than tobacco or alcohol. Additionally, frequent use of LSD and MDMA have pretty severe health consequences much sooner than frequent use of tobacco or alcohol. I'd also add that LSD poses a similar driving hazard to alcohol. On the other hand, tobacco and alcohol don't have any therapeutic qualities unlike MDMA and LSD. Personally. I think alcohol's harm is amplified by its prevalence throughout society, if one could buy MDMA and LSD at every shop and venue it'd be a disaster on par or worse than alcohol. edit: adding some sources https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0007091217350845 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000709121... https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medicine/article/paradoxical-psychological-effects-of-lysergic-acid-diethylamide-lsd/FA7A234B809A951253AF5C29AC79CA4A https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medici...

woopwoop 6y ago
As far as I know, there are literally no deaths attributable to LSD overdose. It is safe (if only in the sense of acute poisoning) to take even at much higher than the typical dose. On the other hand, thousands of people die of alcohol poisoning in the United States every year.
- anaerobicover 6y ago
  You can't meaningfully compare absolute numbers there, though, given the huge disparity in availability and perception. (LSD is "special" in a way alcohol is not: people may be more likely to be cautious when using it.)
  - woopwoop 6y ago
    But I think the LSD number is literally zero, ever.
tayo42 6y ago
You have a source on this? Mdma and lsd are pretty self regulating. mdma will just stop working and lsd likely will just kick your ass sooner or later. opiates and alcohol can be insidious addictions that become normal parts of your life.
ssijak 6y ago
Lsd and mdma build up tolerance quite fast and have crosstolerance between each other. Also, almost zero people take lsd and drive. And lsd is anti addictive in general.

The_rationalist 6y ago

This chart clearly is incomplete. The dimension of tolerance is missing. Can I really take a Xanax every weekend and consistently feel as good as my first time with it? And not feel bad the other days of the week? (the same way as alcohol) If so then I guess everybody should trade Alcohol for Xanax, is that so simple? Also Khat is the best on this chart yet I believe that it makes you feel extremely tired the next day. That being said the topic is really interesting and I am looking forward to a better rational chart.

TheCoelacanth 6y ago
> I guess everybody should trade Alcohol for Xanax Benzodiazepines are at virtually the same position on the chart that alcohol is, so I don't think the chart should be viewed as an endorsement for switching. They are of roughly the same level of danger, but that doesn't mean that they are dangerous in exactly the same ways.