4 ms·

I feel the same way about a lot of poetry, but I think kitschiness is a cultural thing, not a personal perspective. How would you define it?

chestertn 6y ago
See how heartbreak is depicted, for instance in a masterpiece like Paris, Texas and in a random Venezuelan soap opera.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  People make distinctions between "high culture" and "low culture" in cultural analysis now, because it turns out that gatekeeping literature means we only really have an accurate picture of what elite culture in the past was like, not what the lower classes actually lived, perceived, and experienced. Also, some of our literature started off with not great origins one would really attribute to the "proper" form of literature today.
  - chestertn 6y ago
    Well, I tried not to get into the "low culture" vs "high culture" debate by just trying to put an example that I thought it would be agreeable to most people. In Paris, Texas we see an slow but deep study of a character that has been broken and at the end we have a cathartic moment when we understand and maybe empathize with him. In Venezuelan soap operas (not all of them I guess, but many hilarious examples) you see characters that respond in unnatural and superficial ways to forced situations that are just created for the sake of melodrama and shock. You can might think that "low culture" and "high culture" is a product either of gatekeeping or there's some sort of socio-cultural relativism. I would disagree. I think that one can develop "taste" for good things over time by study, reflection, and criticism. TV shows that looked to me funny and enjoyable 10 years ago when I was in college now appear to me badly written, lazy, and vapid. So I do not think that good and bad in art is relative.
    - bobthepanda 6y ago
      As an example of overdramatic "high culture", Juliet fakes her death, Romeo sees her "dead" body and kills himself by drinking poison, Juliet wakes up and attempts to first kill herself by kissing him and receiving the poison, and when that fails stabs herself to death with his dagger.
      - chestertn 6y ago
        Again, I did not introduce the high culture vs low culture debate. I just said that there are better pieces of art and worse pieces of art. Is strange that there is such a debate when something like this is said about art but not about any other endeavor. I’m sure one could draw parallels to programmers or to chefs or to musicians. There’s just people that do things much better than others and the more time you spend in that particular endeavor the more you are able to discriminate. Is it classist to say that the guy who flips burgers doesn’t have the same skill as a top rated chef? Maybe he puts a lot of love doing it. Maybe you like the burger more than the fancy restaurant. But still... And... Shakespeare? I particularly don’t enjoy Shakespeare that much (I’m a Spaniard, we have Cervantes here) but I don’t see your point. Those are dramatic formulas from that time and period, nothing to do with the skill or genius of the writer.
  - kryptiskt 6y ago
    Yeah, high culture often loses in the long run. The first Swedish literature that survives in living form (that is, it's read outside of seminars) is Carl Michael Bellman's drinking songs. They have outlasted all the overwrought poems that his contemporaries put out. I guess it helps that they're really very good.
    - chestertn 6y ago
      Hey, I guess the Renaissance was a mistake. All those snobs reading Protagoras and Cicero, eh? Waste of time.
slibhb 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsch Kitsch is an imitation of art with exaggerated sentimentality. Kitsch offers shallow emotional gratification with no investment. This may seem subjective or culturally relative but I don't think it is. I think the weight of many opinions across time gives these things a certain solidity.
- detaro 6y ago
  Kitsch is not an imitation of art, plenty of art is Kitsch.
- phnofive 6y ago
  The appropriate level of sentimentality or depth of emotional gratification are of course subjective. I don’t think Maya Angelou’s fans appreciate her work ironically.
- jancsika 6y ago
  > I think the weight of many opinions across time gives these things a certain solidity. You think that and actively look for consistency in the reception history of everything you categorize at true art, or you hope that such a hypothesis would pan out if you happen to do that work at some point in the future? I ask because at least in the domain of music, my (admittedly limited) knowledge of the reception history of various pieces doesn't leave much room for the consistency you'd need to determine whether anything is kitsch or not. More importantly, the historical reception of many well-known cases hinges on what (I believe) you'd consider completely irrelevant factors. For example, Taruskin has a chapter from his book "On Russian Music" about Tchaikovsky's Sixth Symphony, showing that the reception history of the work teeter-totters based mainly on what the general acceptance was in a given period/area regarding homosexuality. (Note: the commentators didn't say this explicitly, and probably didn't realize they were doing it-- other scholars had to go back and piece together the pattern based on the data available.) In this case, one ascribing to your hypothesis/theory would be forced to reserve judgment on the "kitschiness" of that symphony based essentially on the results of arbitrary biases from a long gone era. The messiness of reception histories and meaning in art makes me suspicious of a statement like, "Kitsch offers shallow emotional gratification with no investment." I've studied art and music closely enough to realize I almost never have the information necessary to make that judgment. Then in film there's Quentin Tarantino's eye for composition and story-telling in Blacksploitation and Kung Fu movies. Cases like that are all over the place. Hell, there are two young goofballs who are purposefully misreading the very reason John Coltrane wrote Giant Steps-- instead of improvising atop the chord progressions to show their musical prowess they turn it into through-composed video-game speed run music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWqH4h5CQyQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWqH4h5CQyQ Is that kitsch? Are you sure?

chestertn 6y ago

See how heartbreak is depicted, for instance in a masterpiece like Paris, Texas and in a random Venezuelan soap opera.

bobthepanda 6y ago
People make distinctions between "high culture" and "low culture" in cultural analysis now, because it turns out that gatekeeping literature means we only really have an accurate picture of what elite culture in the past was like, not what the lower classes actually lived, perceived, and experienced. Also, some of our literature started off with not great origins one would really attribute to the "proper" form of literature today.
- chestertn 6y ago
  Well, I tried not to get into the "low culture" vs "high culture" debate by just trying to put an example that I thought it would be agreeable to most people. In Paris, Texas we see an slow but deep study of a character that has been broken and at the end we have a cathartic moment when we understand and maybe empathize with him. In Venezuelan soap operas (not all of them I guess, but many hilarious examples) you see characters that respond in unnatural and superficial ways to forced situations that are just created for the sake of melodrama and shock. You can might think that "low culture" and "high culture" is a product either of gatekeeping or there's some sort of socio-cultural relativism. I would disagree. I think that one can develop "taste" for good things over time by study, reflection, and criticism. TV shows that looked to me funny and enjoyable 10 years ago when I was in college now appear to me badly written, lazy, and vapid. So I do not think that good and bad in art is relative.
  - bobthepanda 6y ago
    As an example of overdramatic "high culture", Juliet fakes her death, Romeo sees her "dead" body and kills himself by drinking poison, Juliet wakes up and attempts to first kill herself by kissing him and receiving the poison, and when that fails stabs herself to death with his dagger.
    - chestertn 6y ago
      Again, I did not introduce the high culture vs low culture debate. I just said that there are better pieces of art and worse pieces of art. Is strange that there is such a debate when something like this is said about art but not about any other endeavor. I’m sure one could draw parallels to programmers or to chefs or to musicians. There’s just people that do things much better than others and the more time you spend in that particular endeavor the more you are able to discriminate. Is it classist to say that the guy who flips burgers doesn’t have the same skill as a top rated chef? Maybe he puts a lot of love doing it. Maybe you like the burger more than the fancy restaurant. But still... And... Shakespeare? I particularly don’t enjoy Shakespeare that much (I’m a Spaniard, we have Cervantes here) but I don’t see your point. Those are dramatic formulas from that time and period, nothing to do with the skill or genius of the writer.
- kryptiskt 6y ago
  Yeah, high culture often loses in the long run. The first Swedish literature that survives in living form (that is, it's read outside of seminars) is Carl Michael Bellman's drinking songs. They have outlasted all the overwrought poems that his contemporaries put out. I guess it helps that they're really very good.
  - chestertn 6y ago
    Hey, I guess the Renaissance was a mistake. All those snobs reading Protagoras and Cicero, eh? Waste of time.

slibhb 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsch Kitsch is an imitation of art with exaggerated sentimentality. Kitsch offers shallow emotional gratification with no investment. This may seem subjective or culturally relative but I don't think it is. I think the weight of many opinions across time gives these things a certain solidity.

detaro 6y ago
Kitsch is not an imitation of art, plenty of art is Kitsch.
phnofive 6y ago
The appropriate level of sentimentality or depth of emotional gratification are of course subjective. I don’t think Maya Angelou’s fans appreciate her work ironically.
jancsika 6y ago
> I think the weight of many opinions across time gives these things a certain solidity. You think that and actively look for consistency in the reception history of everything you categorize at true art, or you hope that such a hypothesis would pan out if you happen to do that work at some point in the future? I ask because at least in the domain of music, my (admittedly limited) knowledge of the reception history of various pieces doesn't leave much room for the consistency you'd need to determine whether anything is kitsch or not. More importantly, the historical reception of many well-known cases hinges on what (I believe) you'd consider completely irrelevant factors. For example, Taruskin has a chapter from his book "On Russian Music" about Tchaikovsky's Sixth Symphony, showing that the reception history of the work teeter-totters based mainly on what the general acceptance was in a given period/area regarding homosexuality. (Note: the commentators didn't say this explicitly, and probably didn't realize they were doing it-- other scholars had to go back and piece together the pattern based on the data available.) In this case, one ascribing to your hypothesis/theory would be forced to reserve judgment on the "kitschiness" of that symphony based essentially on the results of arbitrary biases from a long gone era. The messiness of reception histories and meaning in art makes me suspicious of a statement like, "Kitsch offers shallow emotional gratification with no investment." I've studied art and music closely enough to realize I almost never have the information necessary to make that judgment. Then in film there's Quentin Tarantino's eye for composition and story-telling in Blacksploitation and Kung Fu movies. Cases like that are all over the place. Hell, there are two young goofballs who are purposefully misreading the very reason John Coltrane wrote Giant Steps-- instead of improvising atop the chord progressions to show their musical prowess they turn it into through-composed video-game speed run music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWqH4h5CQyQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWqH4h5CQyQ Is that kitsch? Are you sure?