18 ms·

I don't like her poetry. You do. Fine. I'm allowed to share my negative appraisal. Regardless, if there was an attempt to "keep Maya Angelou out," it certainly

by slibhb 6y ago

I don't like her poetry. You do. Fine. I'm allowed to share my negative appraisal. Regardless, if there was an attempt to "keep Maya Angelou out," it certainly failed. My comment about "the definition of literature" was about Eat Pray Love not Maya Angelou. My point was that literature (or art) is not "something that makes people feel good".

marcinzm 6y ago
You didn't just say that you didn't like it. You claimed that it's not literature. Or in other words, you first paragraph is fine as an appraisal, your second paragraph is gatekeeping.
- slibhb 6y ago
  No I didn't. I suggested that Eat Pray Love is not literature on the basis that it makes people feel good. My point was that "whether something makes you feel good" has no bearing on whether that thing counts as poetry/literature/art. I tried to make that point in response to the linked article. If it's "gatekeeping" for me to claim that "X isn't literature" then I guess I'm a "gatekeeper".
  - cortesoft 6y ago
    > If it's "gatekeeping" for me to claim that "X isn't literature" Yes, that is pretty much the definition of gatekeeping.
- Igelau 6y ago
  You keep saying that word. Is there some postpostmodern meaning of "gatekeeping" that I'm not looped in on? We just hurl it around now and hope that bystanders mistake the people we disagree with for oppressors? (The downvotes indicate the arrow hit the mark. No lie, I sincerely appreciate the confirmation.)
  - beaconstudios 6y ago
    It seems like just a more dramatic way of calling something a no true scotsman fallacy. To be actually gatekeeping you'd have to have the power to discourage or prevent people from entering a field, and be wielding that power inappropriately. It's one of a few words that seems to be going through inflation at the moment, like gaslighting.
    - ajkjk 6y ago
      Not quite. The modern usage of 'gatekeeping' just means that you're posturing like you want to keep people from entering the field, not that you can actually do it. The definition on r/gatekeeping (which is as good of a canonical source as any) is "When someone takes it upon themselves to decide who does or does not have access or rights to a community or identity."
      - beaconstudios 6y ago
        Yeah I get that some communities have that definition, but that's inflation on the meaning of the word, ie using a term with an emotional punch for a much more minor infraction. Disagreeing over the definition of "art" is about as old as art itself, its not gatekeeping in any sense unless the person you are disagreeing with is an art historian and is excluding works that don't fit their definition, or something like that.
        ajkjk 6y ago
        You're not going to get very far arguing, "well, the word doesn't meant that to _me_".
        beaconstudios 6y ago
        I know, I'm saying it doesn't mean that historically. It's a fairly recent redefinition that you're describing. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/gatekeeper https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/gatekeep... > someone who has the power to decide who gets particular resources and opportunities, and who does not: > The professors act as gatekeepers who determine which students are admitted into the competetive engineering program.
borepop 6y ago
>literature (or art) is not "something that makes people feel good". The notion that art can't be "good" if it makes people feel good is really misguided, in my opinion. People turn to art for all kinds of reasons, but most of all because of the satisfaction involved in consuming it. Even if a story is tragic or explores sorrowful experiences, we derive aesthetic pleasure from the recounting if it is well done. Art is not cheerleading, but neither does it need to be just some predictable narrative about how life is terrible and hopeless.
- klodolph 6y ago
  > The notion that art can't be "good" if it makes people feel good is really misguided, in my opinion. Speaking of literature, I don't think that reading of the parent comment is correct. The comment was saying that "making people feel good does not make it art/literature," where you're discussing something else, which is "making people feel good makes it not art/literature". The original comment was something like, "Perhaps Eat Pray Love made people's lives better, but making peoples lives better does not make it art/literature."
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- blowski 6y ago
  My opinion is that art is not concerned at all with how it's received, only with how it's produced. If you are doing something because you think it will be popular then you are in business, not art. Of course, people do have reactions to art. But that doesn't change the artistic value of the original piece. If they did, then the artistic value of something would change over time, which seems counter-intuitiive to me. The interplay between the artist and the consumer of their art is a separate piece of art in itself, which may or may not have been "designed" by the artist.
  - krapp 6y ago
    Was the Sistene Chapel ceiling art or business? I'm reasonably certain Michaelangelo was concerned with both how it would be received and whether or not it would be popular.

by slibhb 6y ago

marcinzm 6y ago

You didn't just say that you didn't like it. You claimed that it's not literature. Or in other words, you first paragraph is fine as an appraisal, your second paragraph is gatekeeping.

slibhb 6y ago
No I didn't. I suggested that Eat Pray Love is not literature on the basis that it makes people feel good. My point was that "whether something makes you feel good" has no bearing on whether that thing counts as poetry/literature/art. I tried to make that point in response to the linked article. If it's "gatekeeping" for me to claim that "X isn't literature" then I guess I'm a "gatekeeper".
- cortesoft 6y ago
  > If it's "gatekeeping" for me to claim that "X isn't literature" Yes, that is pretty much the definition of gatekeeping.
Igelau 6y ago
You keep saying that word. Is there some postpostmodern meaning of "gatekeeping" that I'm not looped in on? We just hurl it around now and hope that bystanders mistake the people we disagree with for oppressors? (The downvotes indicate the arrow hit the mark. No lie, I sincerely appreciate the confirmation.)
- beaconstudios 6y ago
  It seems like just a more dramatic way of calling something a no true scotsman fallacy. To be actually gatekeeping you'd have to have the power to discourage or prevent people from entering a field, and be wielding that power inappropriately. It's one of a few words that seems to be going through inflation at the moment, like gaslighting.
  - ajkjk 6y ago
    Not quite. The modern usage of 'gatekeeping' just means that you're posturing like you want to keep people from entering the field, not that you can actually do it. The definition on r/gatekeeping (which is as good of a canonical source as any) is "When someone takes it upon themselves to decide who does or does not have access or rights to a community or identity."
    - beaconstudios 6y ago
      Yeah I get that some communities have that definition, but that's inflation on the meaning of the word, ie using a term with an emotional punch for a much more minor infraction. Disagreeing over the definition of "art" is about as old as art itself, its not gatekeeping in any sense unless the person you are disagreeing with is an art historian and is excluding works that don't fit their definition, or something like that.
      - ajkjk 6y ago
        You're not going to get very far arguing, "well, the word doesn't meant that to _me_".
        beaconstudios 6y ago
        I know, I'm saying it doesn't mean that historically. It's a fairly recent redefinition that you're describing. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/gatekeeper https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/gatekeep... > someone who has the power to decide who gets particular resources and opportunities, and who does not: > The professors act as gatekeepers who determine which students are admitted into the competetive engineering program.

borepop 6y ago

>literature (or art) is not "something that makes people feel good". The notion that art can't be "good" if it makes people feel good is really misguided, in my opinion. People turn to art for all kinds of reasons, but most of all because of the satisfaction involved in consuming it. Even if a story is tragic or explores sorrowful experiences, we derive aesthetic pleasure from the recounting if it is well done. Art is not cheerleading, but neither does it need to be just some predictable narrative about how life is terrible and hopeless.

klodolph 6y ago
> The notion that art can't be "good" if it makes people feel good is really misguided, in my opinion. Speaking of literature, I don't think that reading of the parent comment is correct. The comment was saying that "making people feel good does not make it art/literature," where you're discussing something else, which is "making people feel good makes it not art/literature". The original comment was something like, "Perhaps Eat Pray Love made people's lives better, but making peoples lives better does not make it art/literature."
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
blowski 6y ago
My opinion is that art is not concerned at all with how it's received, only with how it's produced. If you are doing something because you think it will be popular then you are in business, not art. Of course, people do have reactions to art. But that doesn't change the artistic value of the original piece. If they did, then the artistic value of something would change over time, which seems counter-intuitiive to me. The interplay between the artist and the consumer of their art is a separate piece of art in itself, which may or may not have been "designed" by the artist.
- krapp 6y ago
  Was the Sistene Chapel ceiling art or business? I'm reasonably certain Michaelangelo was concerned with both how it would be received and whether or not it would be popular.