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If they gave you an option to pick app stores on first boot, I would agree with you. The choice between the Google store and F-Droid are presented very differe

If they gave you an option to pick app stores on first boot, I would agree with you. The choice between the Google store and F-Droid are presented very differently, and I doubt most users are even aware of there being a choice.

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
While I don't agree with the author's point, I do agree very much that it should totally be fine to force Google and Apple to allow multiple stores that are selected by the user. Furthermore, there is plenty of precedence for this solution, as this is pretty much exactly the approach government took when Microsoft demanded IE be the primary/main browser on Windows.
techrat 6y ago
False dilemma. Google does not restrict one from sideloading another app store of choice. One can install FDroid, Humble Bundle, Epic Store, etc... So whether or not one is aware of a choice doesn't mean you can use the hypothetical of "no option to choose on first boot" as a loophole for violating the TOS of a different service.
- robert_foss 6y ago
  One can if one knows alternative stores exist. What I'd like to see is the solution Microsoft was forced to implement w/r to giving users a choice about browsers.
  - Sebb767 6y ago
    That would actually be a really good solution
- literallycancer 6y ago
  You need root to get the same background update functionality in FDroid though. Otherwise you have to click install for each update.
  - techrat 6y ago
    If you're able to sideload Fdroid, I think clicking to update ranks among the least difficult things you can do.
    - anonymousab 6y ago
      I have found that f-droid click updates are very finicky and unreliable. They eventually work, but failed updates and repeat and phantom update notifications are the norm. It's fine for me but I don't think the average consumer would ever tolerate it.
    - crtasm 6y ago
      Difficulty isn't the issue - for every app that has an update you have to click it, then approve the install. On my phone there's a significant wait inbetween each step. It's a hassle. I wouldn't turn on automatic updates anyway but I'd love to be able to select multiple items and give a single confirmation to update.
- hobs 6y ago
  And that wasnt a good enough argument for microsoft bundling internet explorer and they got the anti-trust hammer on their asses.
adkadskhj 6y ago
I hate Google, but.. you bought the phone, did you not? Like, i get that the market sucks for people who care about this stuff, but i avoid Google because their practices bother me. Are their store practices any different then? Should i not simply avoid purchasing their phones (and phones based on their OS) if i dislike it? I think there's a huge difference between, say, residential ISPs where you can not realistically find a better ISP - vs phones. There are _lots_ of phones, many of them without any storefronts at all, problem solved. You're not forced to buy Google phones, so what is the regulation needed here? I'm generally very pro-regulation/government, but this feels so optional that i don't get what the expected outcome is. No more closed ecosystems? Playstation has to allow arbitrary storefronts in their system? edit: Another way to look at this is that the storefront isn't the problem. You're using their infra, they have a right to make you pay. However when they don't allow you to install your own apps outside of their storefront, that is the real problem. Of course you need to pay for hosting, why do you expect it free? But your phone is your own, so you should be able to avoid their hosting entirely, should you choose.
- robert_foss 6y ago
  There are lots of phones, but realistically you're picking between two ecosystems, Android / iOS. My grandmother isn't going to buy a Fairphone. I think Playstations are different from smartphones / ISPs. You can live a normal life without a console, but you really can't without a smartphone or internet access. This technology is no longer optional.
  - adkadskhj 6y ago
    I can agree with that, but i don't see why that has _anything_ to do with Google hosting your code for free. The argument of Google not having the right to dictate terms of their infra seems completely unfounded to me. Why aren't we arguing for a more open Phone? Google demanding money for their own infra is not the issue.
- Greed 6y ago
  Realistically when you buy a phone you have a choice between two storefronts-- what are these other phones with no storefront you're referring to? Surely you can't be presenting conventional flip phones as an alternative here. Blackberry now produces Android phones and the Windows phone is defunct. That just leaves the myriad of fly-by-night Kickstarter phones that wouldn't be able to run these apps in the first place.

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago

While I don't agree with the author's point, I do agree very much that it should totally be fine to force Google and Apple to allow multiple stores that are selected by the user. Furthermore, there is plenty of precedence for this solution, as this is pretty much exactly the approach government took when Microsoft demanded IE be the primary/main browser on Windows.

techrat 6y ago

False dilemma. Google does not restrict one from sideloading another app store of choice. One can install FDroid, Humble Bundle, Epic Store, etc... So whether or not one is aware of a choice doesn't mean you can use the hypothetical of "no option to choose on first boot" as a loophole for violating the TOS of a different service.

robert_foss 6y ago
One can if one knows alternative stores exist. What I'd like to see is the solution Microsoft was forced to implement w/r to giving users a choice about browsers.
- Sebb767 6y ago
  That would actually be a really good solution
literallycancer 6y ago
You need root to get the same background update functionality in FDroid though. Otherwise you have to click install for each update.
- techrat 6y ago
  If you're able to sideload Fdroid, I think clicking to update ranks among the least difficult things you can do.
  - anonymousab 6y ago
    I have found that f-droid click updates are very finicky and unreliable. They eventually work, but failed updates and repeat and phantom update notifications are the norm. It's fine for me but I don't think the average consumer would ever tolerate it.
  - crtasm 6y ago
    Difficulty isn't the issue - for every app that has an update you have to click it, then approve the install. On my phone there's a significant wait inbetween each step. It's a hassle. I wouldn't turn on automatic updates anyway but I'd love to be able to select multiple items and give a single confirmation to update.
hobs 6y ago
And that wasnt a good enough argument for microsoft bundling internet explorer and they got the anti-trust hammer on their asses.

adkadskhj 6y ago

I hate Google, but.. you bought the phone, did you not? Like, i get that the market sucks for people who care about this stuff, but i avoid Google because their practices bother me. Are their store practices any different then? Should i not simply avoid purchasing their phones (and phones based on their OS) if i dislike it? I think there's a huge difference between, say, residential ISPs where you can not realistically find a better ISP - vs phones. There are _lots_ of phones, many of them without any storefronts at all, problem solved. You're not forced to buy Google phones, so what is the regulation needed here? I'm generally very pro-regulation/government, but this feels so optional that i don't get what the expected outcome is. No more closed ecosystems? Playstation has to allow arbitrary storefronts in their system? edit: Another way to look at this is that the storefront isn't the problem. You're using their infra, they have a right to make you pay. However when they don't allow you to install your own apps outside of their storefront, that is the real problem. Of course you need to pay for hosting, why do you expect it free? But your phone is your own, so you should be able to avoid their hosting entirely, should you choose.

robert_foss 6y ago
There are lots of phones, but realistically you're picking between two ecosystems, Android / iOS. My grandmother isn't going to buy a Fairphone. I think Playstations are different from smartphones / ISPs. You can live a normal life without a console, but you really can't without a smartphone or internet access. This technology is no longer optional.
- adkadskhj 6y ago
  I can agree with that, but i don't see why that has _anything_ to do with Google hosting your code for free. The argument of Google not having the right to dictate terms of their infra seems completely unfounded to me. Why aren't we arguing for a more open Phone? Google demanding money for their own infra is not the issue.
Greed 6y ago
Realistically when you buy a phone you have a choice between two storefronts-- what are these other phones with no storefront you're referring to? Surely you can't be presenting conventional flip phones as an alternative here. Blackberry now produces Android phones and the Windows phone is defunct. That just leaves the myriad of fly-by-night Kickstarter phones that wouldn't be able to run these apps in the first place.