4 ms·

It has always been attainable only for specific skill sets. But acquiring those skills has never been easier. In the case of a software engineer you don’t even

It has always been attainable only for specific skill sets. But acquiring those skills has never been easier. In the case of a software engineer you don’t even necessarily need a degree, though it might help. There’s also more skill sets that pay really well now too. Yes, there are bigger gaps between what valuable and not-as-valuable skills pay than before. But the valuable skills generally leverage productivity enhancers. I’m rich now but I grew up working class. We never had vacations to places like Disney or nights out at restaurants or living in an expensive area. But we had each other and good values such as believing in hard work, self reliance, and taking care of each other. This doesn’t take much money and is available to everyone if they’re willing to do the work.

bumby 6y ago
>It has always been attainable only for specific skill sets. I agree but the real issue is that the bar has been raised considerably. Previously, particularly with manufacturing you could have a middle class income with virtually no credentials. You didn’t need a degree, a portfolio of work, or connections to get a line position that you could keep for 30-40 years until you receive a pension. Nowadays that only gets you a lower income service job unless you can get a union position (which are dropping in numbers over the last few decades). Private defined benefit pensions are also almost non-existent. There will always be people who find a way to succeed by developing a specific set of necessarily skills. That doesn’t mean it’s easier for the average.
- nemo44x 6y ago
  To my other point - there actually is a lot of opportunity for a person with only a high school degree to get work in modern manufacturing. There’s actually a labor supply shortage there because it is difficult to find responsible adults that will come in on-time every day. I have friends that are supervisors in these places and they’re frustrated how difficult it is to find good help. They pay well and offer benefits. But so often they’ll bring a person in who when’s for a week and then doesn’t show up for 2 weeks. Drugs are a huge issue unfortunately. But there’s also fewer good candidates. Anyone who went to college and is struggling to find good work (let’s say, someone one who majored in journalism or women’s studies) won’t do this work. But it’s there and offers a simple middle class life if you’re willing to do the work. I’m not saying it’s perfect out there, but this narrative that the middle class life isn’t available anymore is just not true.
  - bumby 6y ago
    This is something I think we agree on. There is a shortage of people willing to take on those manufacturing and skilled trades jobs. Speaking to why would be a digression, but I think we're on the same side of this point. Where I think we diverge is that these positions don't provide the same path to middle class or upper middle class that they used to. I previously worked in manufacturing on the engineering side and saw firsthand when it changed in some places. Previously, people were brought in and made $25-$40/hr. Particularly when overtime is factored in, that gets you well within middle class (and in many cases breaks into upper middle class by the traditional measure). Now those same positions are being filled at $12-$13/hr. At the upper range they're getting $17/hr. Doing the exact same job, standing right in the position where previously they'd be making 2x as much. Those high wages are still there for the unionized skilled trades but there's not nearly as much opportunity for the average person to walk in and get one of those positions. Besides the fact that union membership in the private sector is waning, those positions are in such high demand you usually have to have some connections to get one. >this narrative that the middle class life isn’t available anymore is just not true To be clear, this isn't the perspective I was trying to make. "Isn't available" and "harder than before" shouldn't be conflated. Now maybe my anecdotal experience is skewed because this was in the rust belt. And I'm not saying there aren't paths to the middle class. I'm just saying it isn't nearly as easy and there seems to be more barriers to entry than previously.

bumby 6y ago

>It has always been attainable only for specific skill sets. I agree but the real issue is that the bar has been raised considerably. Previously, particularly with manufacturing you could have a middle class income with virtually no credentials. You didn’t need a degree, a portfolio of work, or connections to get a line position that you could keep for 30-40 years until you receive a pension. Nowadays that only gets you a lower income service job unless you can get a union position (which are dropping in numbers over the last few decades). Private defined benefit pensions are also almost non-existent. There will always be people who find a way to succeed by developing a specific set of necessarily skills. That doesn’t mean it’s easier for the average.

nemo44x 6y ago
To my other point - there actually is a lot of opportunity for a person with only a high school degree to get work in modern manufacturing. There’s actually a labor supply shortage there because it is difficult to find responsible adults that will come in on-time every day. I have friends that are supervisors in these places and they’re frustrated how difficult it is to find good help. They pay well and offer benefits. But so often they’ll bring a person in who when’s for a week and then doesn’t show up for 2 weeks. Drugs are a huge issue unfortunately. But there’s also fewer good candidates. Anyone who went to college and is struggling to find good work (let’s say, someone one who majored in journalism or women’s studies) won’t do this work. But it’s there and offers a simple middle class life if you’re willing to do the work. I’m not saying it’s perfect out there, but this narrative that the middle class life isn’t available anymore is just not true.
- bumby 6y ago
  This is something I think we agree on. There is a shortage of people willing to take on those manufacturing and skilled trades jobs. Speaking to why would be a digression, but I think we're on the same side of this point. Where I think we diverge is that these positions don't provide the same path to middle class or upper middle class that they used to. I previously worked in manufacturing on the engineering side and saw firsthand when it changed in some places. Previously, people were brought in and made $25-$40/hr. Particularly when overtime is factored in, that gets you well within middle class (and in many cases breaks into upper middle class by the traditional measure). Now those same positions are being filled at $12-$13/hr. At the upper range they're getting $17/hr. Doing the exact same job, standing right in the position where previously they'd be making 2x as much. Those high wages are still there for the unionized skilled trades but there's not nearly as much opportunity for the average person to walk in and get one of those positions. Besides the fact that union membership in the private sector is waning, those positions are in such high demand you usually have to have some connections to get one. >this narrative that the middle class life isn’t available anymore is just not true To be clear, this isn't the perspective I was trying to make. "Isn't available" and "harder than before" shouldn't be conflated. Now maybe my anecdotal experience is skewed because this was in the rust belt. And I'm not saying there aren't paths to the middle class. I'm just saying it isn't nearly as easy and there seems to be more barriers to entry than previously.