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Proud Boys and other far-right groups raise millions via Christian funding site

18 points by ColinWright 6y ago

imadumdum 6y ago
What exactly makes the Proud Boys far right? Don't they mostly just show up to fight Antifa? Antifa are fascists, despite their name and rhetoric, they're normal blackshirts. Someone needs to stand up to them, and it isn't the Portland Police.
- anemoiac 6y ago
  What makes antifa fascist?
  - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
    Do they support free speech? Do they support your right to peaceably assemble? Just another American tribe that sees itself as some sort of savior to the oppressed and who thinks their end justify their means. 2021 America craves the proud boys and antifa.
    - igetspam 6y ago
      They literally do all those things. They support protests by people who are often under threat. They counter protest against known violent extremists. I'm not saying they're perfect but your questions are disingenuous.
  - nec4b 6y ago
    Dressing in black (blackshirts), marching down the streets, beating the perceivably "wrong" thinking civilians, demanding end of democracy, suppressing free speech, etc. When half of America sees a fascist under every rock, but doesn't even know anything about real fascist and fascism from history books.
  - Grieving 6y ago
    They aren't, but Americans have such limited metaphors for understanding the world that they call anything they disagree with fascist. It's the same reason proud boys are described as such.
- alexc05 6y ago
  I think you're listening to what they say they they do as opposed to what they actually do. The Proud Boys have been declared a terrorist organization by the Canadian government. This was specifically based on their role in organizing and planning for violence at at the Washington DC insurrection. No matter what your feelings are about the Canadian government, that isn't something they'd do lightly. While the prod boys official line "we just show up fight anti-fascists" is belied by their actions like "planning and participation in an attempt to violently overthrow the us government" edit: Here's a reference for the claim WRT being declared an actual terrorist org https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2021/02/03/canada-declares-proud-boys-terrorist-organization/4372307001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2021/02/03/canada-...
  - Grieving 6y ago
    Protesting what you believe to be a corrupt system isn't overthrowing the government, else BLM are also guilty. Illegally protesting inside the capitol isn't overthrowing the government, else AOC would be in prison for leading protesters into it in 2018. This protest was far less violent and less destructive than those that Americans have been made to accept as peaceful throughout the preceding year. This wasn't an insurrection, and none of your gaslighting will make it so.
    - cozuya 6y ago
      By what metrics do we call it an insurrection? Since only 5 people died did we need 50 to die before it is an insurrection? 1000? For the "protestors" who shouted "hang Mike Pence", did they need to shout "hang all of congress" for it to be an insurrection? "Hang all democrats"? "White power"? Which is it?
      - Grieving 6y ago
        I hate to break it to you, but I can cherry-pick examples of left-leaning protesters calling for deaths of Trump, Republicans, cops, white people, etc. When people are emotional, they are hyperbolic. Unlike those in the Chaz, for example, these didn't even attempt to seize power. They marched in, made some noise, and left. And as for deaths, we've seen far more of those over the previous year. The only one provably murdered in this case was a protester.
- quantstats 6y ago
  I know that you're "just asking"[1] in bad faith, but just in case someone is mislead by your comment: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/proud-boys https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/grou.... From that link: In early February 2021, the Canadian government designated the Proud Boys as a terrorist entity, citing the role the group played in the Jan. 6, 2021, insurrection at the U.S. Capitol in Washington, D.C. They are not only "far-right", but also "neo-fascist, chauvinist, and exclusively male white nationalist", as the Wikipedia entry begins: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys. [1]https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions
  - cpr 6y ago
    And you believe that wikipedia entry for the Proud Boys is an unbiased presentation? Laughable. The head of the Proud Boys is not white, so it's hard to imagine them being too serious about "white supremacy."
    - quantstats 6y ago
      No, I of course believe the zero proof you presented.
      - cpr 6y ago
        3 seconds of googling, et voila: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_Tarrio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_Tarrio
  - felle_realist 6y ago
    Neither SPLC nor Wikipedia are authoritative sources, it is quite possible that the article on the latter is written and (to use a term which has become popular recently) "colonised" by people associated with the former. SPLC had their purpose when they fought the KKK but they lost track when that enemy was defeated. Now they are just like a label printer run amok, calling people like Maajid Nawaz (muslim, founder of Quilliam, wants to reform islam to get rid of its autocratic and violent tendencies) and Ayaan Hirsi Ali an "islamophobe" while raking in money. Do you have a better source for calling the Proud Boys "right-wing extremists"? I realise it is hard to find an objective source on this subject but such a source is needed and a definition of what exactly is meant with "right-wing extremism" is needed as well. These terms are bandied about just like they don't mean anything, in the same way as "white ___" (fill in the blanks) and the terms "__-phobe" and "___ist" are used. So, what makes the Proud Boys "right-wing extremists"? The fact that they mostly show up to fight "anarchist/left-wing extremists" like Antifa? That is not a good reason, Antifa uses the same tactics as the Italian black shirts and the SA (Sturmabteilung) - in other words, as the real fascists and fascism-inspired national socialists. Their political ideology may differ (they claim to be anarchists but they behave more like syndicalists) but that does not mean they should be allowed to roam free.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  This cannot be a good faith question, but for international readers who may not follow politics in the US, the proud boys are without a doubt far right. They emerged from the alt right movement in the states, eventually calling themselves "alt lite". They were participants in the disastrous Unite the Right rally. Their beliefs include the idea that men and western culture are under siege. They believe there is a white genocide occurring. They are often seen sporting clothing with "six million wasn't enough", a reference to the holocaust. They are an exclusively male organization that values chauvinism. They are designated a terrorist group but the Canadian government. Several members have been charged with terrorism related to the Capitol attacks on January sixth. There's a bunch more. Please take the parent posters comments with a giant grain of salt.
  - Grieving 6y ago
    This is such an inaccurate depiction. "Alt-right" was a catchall label used during the 2016 election for those who were rightish, but didn't see themselves represented by the Republican party. Eventually, media found that Richard Spencer had originally used the term some time before, and attempted to tie all "alt-right" groups to neofascism. They were fairly successful, and the real, Spencerian "alt-right" began disparagingly referring to the fake "alt-right" as "alt-light". By and large, the proudboys and other "alt-light" groups caved to the pressure and abandoned the alt-right label. > They were participants in the disastrous Unite the Right rally. So what? They went to a political rally and did nothing wrong. > Their beliefs include the idea that men and western culture are under siege. True. > They believe there is a white genocide occurring. Some, sure. Race has never been the focus of the proud-boys. Me, personally, I tend to agree with this. "Replacement migration" certainly meets the UN's definition of genocide. > They are often seen sporting clothing with "six million wasn't enough", a reference to the holocaust. No they aren't. This is based on a photo of one dude standing around the Proud Boys wearing a "6MWE" shirt, which others likely wouldn't even have known the meaning of (I didn't, and I spend a lot of time keeping up with right-leaning groups). > They are an exclusively male organization that values chauvinism. True.
    - Ancapistani 6y ago
williesleg 6y ago
Hacker news!
INTPenis 6y ago
I don't know the details here but just throwing this out; activists in Sweden managed to do a lot of damage to neo-nazi groups by attacking their finances. Apparently there were discrepancies that the tax office needed to know, and also the services used to gather tithe from their members did not want to be associated with neo-nazis.
ed25519FUUU 6y ago
These types of articles give me the creeps. It’s fashionable now to dox people as long as they’re on the outside, presuming you can use enough “labels” to justify it, such as “nazi” etc. American politics is now one big tribal crap show.
- krapp 6y ago
  First they came for the Neo-Nazis, and I did nothing, because I was not a Neo-Nazi. Then they came for the pedophiles, and I did nothing, because I was not a pedophile. Then they didn't come for me, because the slippery-slope fallacy is bullshit.
  - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
    I’ve seen this a few times on the net and it’s weird quote to me, because the nazis did incrementally come after more groups; Jews, gay, Gypsies, disabled, etc. Is my takeaway that it didn’t happen or something else?
    - krapp 6y ago
      You don't get the joke? Ok. The poem by Martin Niemoller is often used by far-right apologists to draw a false equivalence between themselves and their opponents, implying that anyone who would fight right-wing extremism is just as much of an evil as the Nazis, doing so under false pretenses, and will simply by virtue of their opposition act as the Nazis themselves did. And yet, in reality, the people who want to "come after" Jews, gays, gypsies, etc are those extremists, not the people opposing them. The slope is in reality only slippery in one direction.
      - felle_realist 6y ago
        > The slope is in reality only slippery in one direction. OK, how about: - first they came after the white men but I did not speak up for I am not a white man, - then they came after the heterosexual men but I did not speak up for I am not a heterosexual man, - then they came after the asian men but I did not speak up for I am not an asian man, - ... many identity categories elided ... . they they came after me and there was nobody left to speak up for me... For sure it is not those "right-wing extremists" who are doing those things I outlined and with that the slippery slope seems to apply to others as well? Better not to bring up that whole slippery slope thing since it cuts all ways and as such does not add anything to the conversation.
benjohnson 6y ago
If Proud Boys are considered far-right neo-nazis, can anybody tell me of a not-far-right political advocacy group that’s allowed to protest without having them labeled as such? I mean... given that this very article shows their leader and several large donors are not white.
- _qwfv 6y ago
  You are asking for one example. A recent one that comes to mind are peaceful anti mask protesters. I don't think they are labeled neonazis. I happen to disagree with them strongly and hold their views in low regard and believe they are directly contributing to the pandemic, but I haven't seen them widely labeled neonazis.
  - benjohnson 6y ago
    In normal political times, I think your example with disprove my premise, but here you have the SPLC lumping in the anti-maskers with nazis, murders and racists in their Year of Hate and Extremism. https://www.splcenter.org/news/2021/02/01/year-hate-2020 https://www.splcenter.org/news/2021/02/01/year-hate-2020 Upon reflection, I think there’s two problems here: The left labeling everything they don’t like as being Nazi, and the right who is unable to police their own members from real jerks. Here’s an example - when the Tea Party first started I sws a mildly-right group of people that had all sorts of people: Asians tired of taxes, pro-2nd amendment Blacks and quite a free people who were liberal but were tired of government waste. Even granola types who thought that the government was too big and too federal and thought that policy decisions should be more local. Then the crazies showed up and within a month it became a group that I didn’t want to be associated with - we didn’t have the guts to tell them to leave and that was our fault. I don’t like telling that story, because based on the evidence, their was barely any time at all when the Tea Party wasn’t nuts.
    - _qwfv 6y ago
      The link you posted mentions anti maskers once, and only calls some of them antigovernment. But yeah, your broader point is worth exploring. People coopting movements is definitely a thing. Should the original groups do more to exclude the (your words) crazies?

18 points by ColinWright 6y ago

What exactly makes the Proud Boys far right? Don't they mostly just show up to fight Antifa? Antifa are fascists, despite their name and rhetoric, they're normal blackshirts. Someone needs to stand up to them, and it isn't the Portland Police.

anemoiac 6y ago
What makes antifa fascist?
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  Do they support free speech? Do they support your right to peaceably assemble? Just another American tribe that sees itself as some sort of savior to the oppressed and who thinks their end justify their means. 2021 America craves the proud boys and antifa.
  - igetspam 6y ago
    They literally do all those things. They support protests by people who are often under threat. They counter protest against known violent extremists. I'm not saying they're perfect but your questions are disingenuous.
- nec4b 6y ago
  Dressing in black (blackshirts), marching down the streets, beating the perceivably "wrong" thinking civilians, demanding end of democracy, suppressing free speech, etc. When half of America sees a fascist under every rock, but doesn't even know anything about real fascist and fascism from history books.
- Grieving 6y ago
  They aren't, but Americans have such limited metaphors for understanding the world that they call anything they disagree with fascist. It's the same reason proud boys are described as such.
alexc05 6y ago
I think you're listening to what they say they they do as opposed to what they actually do. The Proud Boys have been declared a terrorist organization by the Canadian government. This was specifically based on their role in organizing and planning for violence at at the Washington DC insurrection. No matter what your feelings are about the Canadian government, that isn't something they'd do lightly. While the prod boys official line "we just show up fight anti-fascists" is belied by their actions like "planning and participation in an attempt to violently overthrow the us government" edit: Here's a reference for the claim WRT being declared an actual terrorist org https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2021/02/03/canada-declares-proud-boys-terrorist-organization/4372307001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2021/02/03/canada-...
- Grieving 6y ago
  Protesting what you believe to be a corrupt system isn't overthrowing the government, else BLM are also guilty. Illegally protesting inside the capitol isn't overthrowing the government, else AOC would be in prison for leading protesters into it in 2018. This protest was far less violent and less destructive than those that Americans have been made to accept as peaceful throughout the preceding year. This wasn't an insurrection, and none of your gaslighting will make it so.
  - cozuya 6y ago
    By what metrics do we call it an insurrection? Since only 5 people died did we need 50 to die before it is an insurrection? 1000? For the "protestors" who shouted "hang Mike Pence", did they need to shout "hang all of congress" for it to be an insurrection? "Hang all democrats"? "White power"? Which is it?
    - Grieving 6y ago
      I hate to break it to you, but I can cherry-pick examples of left-leaning protesters calling for deaths of Trump, Republicans, cops, white people, etc. When people are emotional, they are hyperbolic. Unlike those in the Chaz, for example, these didn't even attempt to seize power. They marched in, made some noise, and left. And as for deaths, we've seen far more of those over the previous year. The only one provably murdered in this case was a protester.
quantstats 6y ago
I know that you're "just asking"[1] in bad faith, but just in case someone is mislead by your comment: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/proud-boys https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/grou.... From that link: In early February 2021, the Canadian government designated the Proud Boys as a terrorist entity, citing the role the group played in the Jan. 6, 2021, insurrection at the U.S. Capitol in Washington, D.C. They are not only "far-right", but also "neo-fascist, chauvinist, and exclusively male white nationalist", as the Wikipedia entry begins: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys. [1]https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions
- cpr 6y ago
  And you believe that wikipedia entry for the Proud Boys is an unbiased presentation? Laughable. The head of the Proud Boys is not white, so it's hard to imagine them being too serious about "white supremacy."
  - quantstats 6y ago
    No, I of course believe the zero proof you presented.
    - cpr 6y ago
      3 seconds of googling, et voila: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_Tarrio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_Tarrio
- felle_realist 6y ago
  Neither SPLC nor Wikipedia are authoritative sources, it is quite possible that the article on the latter is written and (to use a term which has become popular recently) "colonised" by people associated with the former. SPLC had their purpose when they fought the KKK but they lost track when that enemy was defeated. Now they are just like a label printer run amok, calling people like Maajid Nawaz (muslim, founder of Quilliam, wants to reform islam to get rid of its autocratic and violent tendencies) and Ayaan Hirsi Ali an "islamophobe" while raking in money. Do you have a better source for calling the Proud Boys "right-wing extremists"? I realise it is hard to find an objective source on this subject but such a source is needed and a definition of what exactly is meant with "right-wing extremism" is needed as well. These terms are bandied about just like they don't mean anything, in the same way as "white ___" (fill in the blanks) and the terms "__-phobe" and "___ist" are used. So, what makes the Proud Boys "right-wing extremists"? The fact that they mostly show up to fight "anarchist/left-wing extremists" like Antifa? That is not a good reason, Antifa uses the same tactics as the Italian black shirts and the SA (Sturmabteilung) - in other words, as the real fascists and fascism-inspired national socialists. Their political ideology may differ (they claim to be anarchists but they behave more like syndicalists) but that does not mean they should be allowed to roam free.
Pfhreak 6y ago
This cannot be a good faith question, but for international readers who may not follow politics in the US, the proud boys are without a doubt far right. They emerged from the alt right movement in the states, eventually calling themselves "alt lite". They were participants in the disastrous Unite the Right rally. Their beliefs include the idea that men and western culture are under siege. They believe there is a white genocide occurring. They are often seen sporting clothing with "six million wasn't enough", a reference to the holocaust. They are an exclusively male organization that values chauvinism. They are designated a terrorist group but the Canadian government. Several members have been charged with terrorism related to the Capitol attacks on January sixth. There's a bunch more. Please take the parent posters comments with a giant grain of salt.
- Grieving 6y ago
  This is such an inaccurate depiction. "Alt-right" was a catchall label used during the 2016 election for those who were rightish, but didn't see themselves represented by the Republican party. Eventually, media found that Richard Spencer had originally used the term some time before, and attempted to tie all "alt-right" groups to neofascism. They were fairly successful, and the real, Spencerian "alt-right" began disparagingly referring to the fake "alt-right" as "alt-light". By and large, the proudboys and other "alt-light" groups caved to the pressure and abandoned the alt-right label. > They were participants in the disastrous Unite the Right rally. So what? They went to a political rally and did nothing wrong. > Their beliefs include the idea that men and western culture are under siege. True. > They believe there is a white genocide occurring. Some, sure. Race has never been the focus of the proud-boys. Me, personally, I tend to agree with this. "Replacement migration" certainly meets the UN's definition of genocide. > They are often seen sporting clothing with "six million wasn't enough", a reference to the holocaust. No they aren't. This is based on a photo of one dude standing around the Proud Boys wearing a "6MWE" shirt, which others likely wouldn't even have known the meaning of (I didn't, and I spend a lot of time keeping up with right-leaning groups). > They are an exclusively male organization that values chauvinism. True.
  - Ancapistani 6y ago

williesleg 6y ago

Hacker news!

INTPenis 6y ago

I don't know the details here but just throwing this out; activists in Sweden managed to do a lot of damage to neo-nazi groups by attacking their finances. Apparently there were discrepancies that the tax office needed to know, and also the services used to gather tithe from their members did not want to be associated with neo-nazis.

ed25519FUUU 6y ago

These types of articles give me the creeps. It’s fashionable now to dox people as long as they’re on the outside, presuming you can use enough “labels” to justify it, such as “nazi” etc. American politics is now one big tribal crap show.

krapp 6y ago
First they came for the Neo-Nazis, and I did nothing, because I was not a Neo-Nazi. Then they came for the pedophiles, and I did nothing, because I was not a pedophile. Then they didn't come for me, because the slippery-slope fallacy is bullshit.
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  I’ve seen this a few times on the net and it’s weird quote to me, because the nazis did incrementally come after more groups; Jews, gay, Gypsies, disabled, etc. Is my takeaway that it didn’t happen or something else?
  - krapp 6y ago
    You don't get the joke? Ok. The poem by Martin Niemoller is often used by far-right apologists to draw a false equivalence between themselves and their opponents, implying that anyone who would fight right-wing extremism is just as much of an evil as the Nazis, doing so under false pretenses, and will simply by virtue of their opposition act as the Nazis themselves did. And yet, in reality, the people who want to "come after" Jews, gays, gypsies, etc are those extremists, not the people opposing them. The slope is in reality only slippery in one direction.
    - felle_realist 6y ago
      > The slope is in reality only slippery in one direction. OK, how about: - first they came after the white men but I did not speak up for I am not a white man, - then they came after the heterosexual men but I did not speak up for I am not a heterosexual man, - then they came after the asian men but I did not speak up for I am not an asian man, - ... many identity categories elided ... . they they came after me and there was nobody left to speak up for me... For sure it is not those "right-wing extremists" who are doing those things I outlined and with that the slippery slope seems to apply to others as well? Better not to bring up that whole slippery slope thing since it cuts all ways and as such does not add anything to the conversation.

benjohnson 6y ago

If Proud Boys are considered far-right neo-nazis, can anybody tell me of a not-far-right political advocacy group that’s allowed to protest without having them labeled as such? I mean... given that this very article shows their leader and several large donors are not white.

_qwfv 6y ago
You are asking for one example. A recent one that comes to mind are peaceful anti mask protesters. I don't think they are labeled neonazis. I happen to disagree with them strongly and hold their views in low regard and believe they are directly contributing to the pandemic, but I haven't seen them widely labeled neonazis.
- benjohnson 6y ago
  In normal political times, I think your example with disprove my premise, but here you have the SPLC lumping in the anti-maskers with nazis, murders and racists in their Year of Hate and Extremism. https://www.splcenter.org/news/2021/02/01/year-hate-2020 https://www.splcenter.org/news/2021/02/01/year-hate-2020 Upon reflection, I think there’s two problems here: The left labeling everything they don’t like as being Nazi, and the right who is unable to police their own members from real jerks. Here’s an example - when the Tea Party first started I sws a mildly-right group of people that had all sorts of people: Asians tired of taxes, pro-2nd amendment Blacks and quite a free people who were liberal but were tired of government waste. Even granola types who thought that the government was too big and too federal and thought that policy decisions should be more local. Then the crazies showed up and within a month it became a group that I didn’t want to be associated with - we didn’t have the guts to tell them to leave and that was our fault. I don’t like telling that story, because based on the evidence, their was barely any time at all when the Tea Party wasn’t nuts.
  - _qwfv 6y ago
    The link you posted mentions anti maskers once, and only calls some of them antigovernment. But yeah, your broader point is worth exploring. People coopting movements is definitely a thing. Should the original groups do more to exclude the (your words) crazies?