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In other news, 12% of nurses are men. Is it because the nursing industry isn’t welcoming to men or is it because men aren’t attracted to nursing jobs? You can

In other news, 12% of nurses are men. Is it because the nursing industry isn’t welcoming to men or is it because men aren’t attracted to nursing jobs? You can see bias anywhere you look, but if you look well you’ll see that it’s just a natural consequence of the real world. If a user joined a car shop group, said user is likely to be interested in car-related jobs. It happens to be that most of these users are men. The algorithm is working as intended. In some fields this difference isn’t as clear or obvious, so we end up with these articles.

cj 5y ago
From the article: > This is considered sex-based discrimination under US equal employment opportunity law, which bans ad targeting based on protected characteristics. The algorithm is not "working as intended" if it's violating EEO laws.
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  And, indeed, those laws are set up, in a sense, to cut against "natural" order (or, more specifically, to widen opportunities beyond the limits imposed by societal tradition).
- KMnO4 5y ago
  I’m sure the algorithm isn’t checking “if (person.sex == male) { show_car_jobs(); }”, But rather “if (person.likes_cars) { show_car_jobs(); }”.
  - psychometry 5y ago
    Clearly, but you're entirely missing the point.
  - anoncake 5y ago
    The question is it it's checking "if(person.sex != male) { person.likes_cars = false }".
- fabatka 5y ago
  I think this depends on what the algorithm uses. Or would "liked page related to the job description" be considered a protected characteristic? My non-lawyer instinct would say that as long as the algorithm doesnt't contain a line that explicitly tells it to consider sex as a parameter to decide who to show the ad, it doesn't breach this law.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > The algorithm is not "working as intended" if it's violating EEO laws. It is if it is intended to work in a way that violates EEO laws. Just like if somewhat sets a death trap targeting you and it works as planned, the fact that it is violating murder laws doesn’t suddenly mean it isn’t working as intended.
tyingq 5y ago
The Boston Globe has an interesting chart of other professions dominated by women: https://archive.is/3t8dU https://archive.is/3t8dU (archive.is since there's a paywall at the Globe)
29athrowaway 5y ago
By the time you realized the narrative in the article is wrong, you have already rendered the article, including all of the ads in it. It's not about journalism anymore, it's about ads.
ausbah 5y ago
"consequence of the real world" feels like a cop out answer to the question. that very well may be part of if not the whole reason (I'm not a labor economists or the sort so I'm not going to speculate), but I would rather see if there aren't other systemic reasons for the biases - ie reinforcing gender with different jobs in media consumption, the domination of one gender in a type of job creating an environment that turns aways members of the other gender intentionally or unintentionally and even of "that's just the way things are", I don't see any good reason why the advertising needs to remain so targeted on the lines of gender. job recruitment should be as free of biases as possible
- thitcanh 5y ago
  I don’t disagree with you, but that will make advertising less effective. A nursing job shown to me and a programming job shown to my sister will both be ignored and wasted. The opposite wouldn’t be true. Likewise showing me a car shop job would also be wasted, not because of my gender, but because I have no interest in cars, as my Facebook profile clearly shows.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  In the car repair job example, it’s not clear to me that the ad is being targeted on gender; in fact, it’s pretty clear to me that it’s being targeted based on revealed interest in cars. That the latter has a correlation with gender is true but not especially concerning to me.
wfleming 5y ago
Women's representation in CS was highest in the 60s and has fallen pretty consistently since then (starting to rise a bit recently as the industry has started to see the gap as a problem). The general prestige and economic rewards of CS, on the other hand, have risen considerably in the same time period. If a demographic's involvement decreases as the subject becomes more rewarding, it seems more likely to be because external forces are discouraging them rather than any inherent lack of interest.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  This might make intuitive sense but isn't supported by the research: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox
  - wfleming 5y ago
    That article goes over some problems with the initial study, and some issues replicating (although the follow up study did find a similar effect). Hardly seems like a slam dunk, though, and given those issues it seems the effect is likely weak if it does exist. More broadly, I question how effectively "endogenous interest" can be accurately measured without risking a lot of confounding factors from the broader society. I didn't read the original paper, maybe they tried to account for that, but I can't really see how you reliably could. People's interests don't exist in a vacuum, they're tangled up in their upbringing and society. If they'd done a similar study a century ago they might have found women having a high endogenous interest in being homemakers.
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      I don't think you could separate them at all because things like gender roles are down wind from sex roles and societal upbringing and nobody is brought up outside of social conditions to act as a control. The important question is whether passionate people are being kept out of industry en masse. My gut says it probably happens on an individual basis but I don't see why it would happen systematically.
_jal 5y ago
> you’ll see that it’s just a natural consequence of the real world. So is rape, murder, theft and random catastrophe. Do we stop trying to do something about those, too?
belorn 5y ago
Looking at the data from the related women dominated profession of teacher, the answer is very much that it isn't welcome to men. "culture fit" as they call it. An old theory to explain this is the impact that being a minority has on the individual. Any difficult and advanced education is going to cause ups and down, and each road block will natural trigger self doubt. Being a minority makes that doubt stronger and increases that risk that the individual will abandon their chosen path. Similar being in a strong majority demographic will lower the self doubt and associated risk. Multiply that risk for 4 years of studying and then a few years in profession, and the minority demographic will look like a leaking pipe. If you ask those who choose to leave the profession, the answers will have a large percentage saying that they did not feel like they fitted in. In addition, industries that are dominated with men tend to focus progression on a career path with a steady amount of raises, while industries that a dominated by women tend to focus progression on privileges and status positions within the organization. A miss match of those expectation may also lead to people not feeling appreciated for their contributions and end up quieting the profession.

cj 5y ago

From the article: > This is considered sex-based discrimination under US equal employment opportunity law, which bans ad targeting based on protected characteristics. The algorithm is not "working as intended" if it's violating EEO laws.

shadowgovt 5y ago
And, indeed, those laws are set up, in a sense, to cut against "natural" order (or, more specifically, to widen opportunities beyond the limits imposed by societal tradition).
KMnO4 5y ago
I’m sure the algorithm isn’t checking “if (person.sex == male) { show_car_jobs(); }”, But rather “if (person.likes_cars) { show_car_jobs(); }”.
- psychometry 5y ago
  Clearly, but you're entirely missing the point.
- anoncake 5y ago
  The question is it it's checking "if(person.sex != male) { person.likes_cars = false }".
fabatka 5y ago
I think this depends on what the algorithm uses. Or would "liked page related to the job description" be considered a protected characteristic? My non-lawyer instinct would say that as long as the algorithm doesnt't contain a line that explicitly tells it to consider sex as a parameter to decide who to show the ad, it doesn't breach this law.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> The algorithm is not "working as intended" if it's violating EEO laws. It is if it is intended to work in a way that violates EEO laws. Just like if somewhat sets a death trap targeting you and it works as planned, the fact that it is violating murder laws doesn’t suddenly mean it isn’t working as intended.

tyingq 5y ago

The Boston Globe has an interesting chart of other professions dominated by women: https://archive.is/3t8dU https://archive.is/3t8dU (archive.is since there's a paywall at the Globe)

29athrowaway 5y ago

By the time you realized the narrative in the article is wrong, you have already rendered the article, including all of the ads in it. It's not about journalism anymore, it's about ads.

ausbah 5y ago

"consequence of the real world" feels like a cop out answer to the question. that very well may be part of if not the whole reason (I'm not a labor economists or the sort so I'm not going to speculate), but I would rather see if there aren't other systemic reasons for the biases - ie reinforcing gender with different jobs in media consumption, the domination of one gender in a type of job creating an environment that turns aways members of the other gender intentionally or unintentionally and even of "that's just the way things are", I don't see any good reason why the advertising needs to remain so targeted on the lines of gender. job recruitment should be as free of biases as possible

thitcanh 5y ago
I don’t disagree with you, but that will make advertising less effective. A nursing job shown to me and a programming job shown to my sister will both be ignored and wasted. The opposite wouldn’t be true. Likewise showing me a car shop job would also be wasted, not because of my gender, but because I have no interest in cars, as my Facebook profile clearly shows.
sokoloff 5y ago
In the car repair job example, it’s not clear to me that the ad is being targeted on gender; in fact, it’s pretty clear to me that it’s being targeted based on revealed interest in cars. That the latter has a correlation with gender is true but not especially concerning to me.

wfleming 5y ago

Women's representation in CS was highest in the 60s and has fallen pretty consistently since then (starting to rise a bit recently as the industry has started to see the gap as a problem). The general prestige and economic rewards of CS, on the other hand, have risen considerably in the same time period. If a demographic's involvement decreases as the subject becomes more rewarding, it seems more likely to be because external forces are discouraging them rather than any inherent lack of interest.

beaconstudios 5y ago
This might make intuitive sense but isn't supported by the research: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox
- wfleming 5y ago
  That article goes over some problems with the initial study, and some issues replicating (although the follow up study did find a similar effect). Hardly seems like a slam dunk, though, and given those issues it seems the effect is likely weak if it does exist. More broadly, I question how effectively "endogenous interest" can be accurately measured without risking a lot of confounding factors from the broader society. I didn't read the original paper, maybe they tried to account for that, but I can't really see how you reliably could. People's interests don't exist in a vacuum, they're tangled up in their upbringing and society. If they'd done a similar study a century ago they might have found women having a high endogenous interest in being homemakers.
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    I don't think you could separate them at all because things like gender roles are down wind from sex roles and societal upbringing and nobody is brought up outside of social conditions to act as a control. The important question is whether passionate people are being kept out of industry en masse. My gut says it probably happens on an individual basis but I don't see why it would happen systematically.

_jal 5y ago

> you’ll see that it’s just a natural consequence of the real world. So is rape, murder, theft and random catastrophe. Do we stop trying to do something about those, too?

belorn 5y ago

Looking at the data from the related women dominated profession of teacher, the answer is very much that it isn't welcome to men. "culture fit" as they call it. An old theory to explain this is the impact that being a minority has on the individual. Any difficult and advanced education is going to cause ups and down, and each road block will natural trigger self doubt. Being a minority makes that doubt stronger and increases that risk that the individual will abandon their chosen path. Similar being in a strong majority demographic will lower the self doubt and associated risk. Multiply that risk for 4 years of studying and then a few years in profession, and the minority demographic will look like a leaking pipe. If you ask those who choose to leave the profession, the answers will have a large percentage saying that they did not feel like they fitted in. In addition, industries that are dominated with men tend to focus progression on a career path with a steady amount of raises, while industries that a dominated by women tend to focus progression on privileges and status positions within the organization. A miss match of those expectation may also lead to people not feeling appreciated for their contributions and end up quieting the profession.