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Ugh. If I have to do all of that, in addition to all of the development work, then what purpose do all the other managers, designers, PMs, POs, etc. serve? Ag

Ugh. If I have to do all of that, in addition to all of the development work, then what purpose do all the other managers, designers, PMs, POs, etc. serve? Again, devs have to do everyone else's jobs including their own. In the same sense they should rely on me for technical things, I rely on them for the non-technical things.

blacktriangle 6y ago
Depends on the size of your organization. For example in smaller shops the whole manager/PM/PO is rolled into one individual, if that person even exists. At the shop I worked at we didn't have PMs, so for each client one developer was declared the "Product-minded SE" for that project who had the extra level of organizational responsibility for that project.
caturopath 6y ago
Because serving your customers is the entire point of the organization?
- stepbeek 6y ago
  This is the point I was hoping for. Your job probably isn’t “write code”. It’s probably something like “build the payment processor “. Code is just an incredibly enjoyable implementation detail.
  - ignoramous 6y ago
    Reminds me of "what do staff engineers do?" https://staffeng.com/guides/staff-archetypes https://staffeng.com/guides/staff-archetypes So, when one is indeed expected to do such work, they better be compensated like staff engs in that case.
  - g051051 6y ago
    I can do their jobs, but no one else can do mine.
occz 6y ago
If I'm going to do other peoples jobs in addition to my own, I should get those peoples salaries as well, right?
- mettamage 6y ago
  A lot of big tech companies do compensate amazingly well according to this author (in other articles he wrote). Big tech companies expect SWEs to be problem solvers and to utilize their leverage. Just paraphrasing/summarizing his perspective. Assuming that to be true, I think you do get compensated relatively fairly.
njitbew 6y ago
Why so negative? You don't _have_ to do all of that, but as a software engineer you are in the unique position in which you're able to do a bit of all of that _if you want to_. It's like saying: why should I do operations work when I'm a developer. But then DevOps became a thing and every developer was suddenly also an operations guy. Being able to pick up different roles is an extremely valuable skill, and you're limiting yourself if you're drawing an imaginary boundary between technical and non-technical things.
- g051051 6y ago
  So-called "DevOps" falls into this as well. Not enough Ops staff? Just put the devs on call, too. They can still do all of their normal work in addition to all the ops stuff. I look forward to when DevOps stops being "a thing".
nine_zeros 6y ago
Exactly this. Also applies to team leads and management. If I'm going to go remove bottlenecks, mentor, keep the team culture going, solve gnarly technical and people issues, create project docs, maintain relationships across teams so our team is not perceived as useless, what exactly does management do? I fail to understand that how ownership is thrown at devs without recognition, promotions or higher pay. At it's core, I fail to see the value management brings to the table if they cannot unblock projects, instead asking devs to do all of it.
- stuxnet79 6y ago
  Not enough blog posts have been written about this. "Ownership" is all too often weaponized in subtle ways that reduce an individual contributor's political leverage. You get "blamed" for not taking enough ownership when shit goes south, but if things are going well the managers and product owners take all the credit.
default-kramer 6y ago
I think this is YMMV. I've had a few jobs where I was very product-minded and a few jobs where I wasn't. The product-minded jobs were way more enjoyable to me. I really like the empowerment, autonomy, and sense of ownership that comes with being product-minded. I feel like I am allowed to thrive, and that my contributions produce much more value. Maybe this is possible in a non-product-minded role, but I think you would need really great support roles (PM, PO, etc) and great communication.
amw-zero 6y ago
If you don’t do all of that, what exactly is the value that you’re providing to the business?

blacktriangle 6y ago

Depends on the size of your organization. For example in smaller shops the whole manager/PM/PO is rolled into one individual, if that person even exists. At the shop I worked at we didn't have PMs, so for each client one developer was declared the "Product-minded SE" for that project who had the extra level of organizational responsibility for that project.

caturopath 6y ago

Because serving your customers is the entire point of the organization?

stepbeek 6y ago
This is the point I was hoping for. Your job probably isn’t “write code”. It’s probably something like “build the payment processor “. Code is just an incredibly enjoyable implementation detail.
- ignoramous 6y ago
  Reminds me of "what do staff engineers do?" https://staffeng.com/guides/staff-archetypes https://staffeng.com/guides/staff-archetypes So, when one is indeed expected to do such work, they better be compensated like staff engs in that case.
- g051051 6y ago
  I can do their jobs, but no one else can do mine.

occz 6y ago

If I'm going to do other peoples jobs in addition to my own, I should get those peoples salaries as well, right?

mettamage 6y ago
A lot of big tech companies do compensate amazingly well according to this author (in other articles he wrote). Big tech companies expect SWEs to be problem solvers and to utilize their leverage. Just paraphrasing/summarizing his perspective. Assuming that to be true, I think you do get compensated relatively fairly.

njitbew 6y ago

Why so negative? You don't _have_ to do all of that, but as a software engineer you are in the unique position in which you're able to do a bit of all of that _if you want to_. It's like saying: why should I do operations work when I'm a developer. But then DevOps became a thing and every developer was suddenly also an operations guy. Being able to pick up different roles is an extremely valuable skill, and you're limiting yourself if you're drawing an imaginary boundary between technical and non-technical things.

g051051 6y ago
So-called "DevOps" falls into this as well. Not enough Ops staff? Just put the devs on call, too. They can still do all of their normal work in addition to all the ops stuff. I look forward to when DevOps stops being "a thing".

nine_zeros 6y ago

Exactly this. Also applies to team leads and management. If I'm going to go remove bottlenecks, mentor, keep the team culture going, solve gnarly technical and people issues, create project docs, maintain relationships across teams so our team is not perceived as useless, what exactly does management do? I fail to understand that how ownership is thrown at devs without recognition, promotions or higher pay. At it's core, I fail to see the value management brings to the table if they cannot unblock projects, instead asking devs to do all of it.

stuxnet79 6y ago
Not enough blog posts have been written about this. "Ownership" is all too often weaponized in subtle ways that reduce an individual contributor's political leverage. You get "blamed" for not taking enough ownership when shit goes south, but if things are going well the managers and product owners take all the credit.

default-kramer 6y ago

I think this is YMMV. I've had a few jobs where I was very product-minded and a few jobs where I wasn't. The product-minded jobs were way more enjoyable to me. I really like the empowerment, autonomy, and sense of ownership that comes with being product-minded. I feel like I am allowed to thrive, and that my contributions produce much more value. Maybe this is possible in a non-product-minded role, but I think you would need really great support roles (PM, PO, etc) and great communication.

amw-zero 6y ago

If you don’t do all of that, what exactly is the value that you’re providing to the business?