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High speed railway upgrades are really expensive compared with roads. Some numbers to put this into perspective: The interstate highway system is 44k miles of

High speed railway upgrades are really expensive compared with roads. Some numbers to put this into perspective: The interstate highway system is 44k miles of roadway. The current estimate for upgrading one mainline railway in the UK (HS2) is about 400m dollars a mile. US defence spending is < 1t dollars. So it would take a defence scale budget for 20 years to build out a high speed rail network to cover the same routes as the interstate highway network.

hkt 6y ago
Having been watching the HS2 debacle for many, many years, it is worth noting two things. One is that we, in the UK, are especially incompetent when it comes to almost all forms of capital spending. Our IT projects, property development, transport projects etc all suffer from this. HS2 is no different. But more importantly to that cost is the land which has to be bought. Yes, there are lots of expensive consultants to pay because HSR is relatively complicated, but the cost of land in London and the South East of England is exorbitant. I don't have a number, but would expect this to constitute half the cost of the first phase of building.
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  > But more importantly to that cost is the land which has to be bought. I've been increasing thinking this is a negative effect of fictionalization and the resulting explosion in property prices. If the government needs to buy some land it competes with investors with access to free money from the central banks.
- pydry 6y ago
  >we, in the UK, are especially incompetent when it comes to almost all forms of capital spending I don't think anybody is particularly good. China is better at building HSR largely by dint of having more practice, not because they're better at capital expenditure. IT projects are corruption, I think. There's no way Accenture would survive in a properly competitive market for IT were it not for the UK government contracts having legal requirements only they and a few other large consulting companies can meet.
tonyedgecombe 6y ago
HS2 isn't an upgrade, it's a new line.
tbihl 6y ago
Isn't rail by its nature more hub-and-spoke oriented than driving? That should lend itself to far fewer miles. In any case, the interstate system is way overbuilt. Duplicating its footprint with rail would not be a good idea.
chrisseaton 6y ago
HS2 is not upgrading a line. It is building an entirely new line, through some extremely expensive and ancient land, making huge efforts to minimise environmental impact.

hkt 6y ago

Having been watching the HS2 debacle for many, many years, it is worth noting two things. One is that we, in the UK, are especially incompetent when it comes to almost all forms of capital spending. Our IT projects, property development, transport projects etc all suffer from this. HS2 is no different. But more importantly to that cost is the land which has to be bought. Yes, there are lots of expensive consultants to pay because HSR is relatively complicated, but the cost of land in London and the South East of England is exorbitant. I don't have a number, but would expect this to constitute half the cost of the first phase of building.

Gibbon1 6y ago
> But more importantly to that cost is the land which has to be bought. I've been increasing thinking this is a negative effect of fictionalization and the resulting explosion in property prices. If the government needs to buy some land it competes with investors with access to free money from the central banks.
pydry 6y ago
>we, in the UK, are especially incompetent when it comes to almost all forms of capital spending I don't think anybody is particularly good. China is better at building HSR largely by dint of having more practice, not because they're better at capital expenditure. IT projects are corruption, I think. There's no way Accenture would survive in a properly competitive market for IT were it not for the UK government contracts having legal requirements only they and a few other large consulting companies can meet.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago

HS2 isn't an upgrade, it's a new line.

tbihl 6y ago

Isn't rail by its nature more hub-and-spoke oriented than driving? That should lend itself to far fewer miles. In any case, the interstate system is way overbuilt. Duplicating its footprint with rail would not be a good idea.

chrisseaton 6y ago

HS2 is not upgrading a line. It is building an entirely new line, through some extremely expensive and ancient land, making huge efforts to minimise environmental impact.