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So the fact that someone was a developer of X, means their resilient to following some agenda or non objective opinion? There's a really famous and often quoted

So the fact that someone was a developer of X, means their resilient to following some agenda or non objective opinion? There's a really famous and often quoted talk about X vs Wayland from one of those developers and it was clearly made in a way to present Wayland in a better light by purposely portraying X11 in a bad way, for example by leaving out crucial details. Like in one example they picked on the slow startup time of applications and attributed it to the blocking calls made to X.org, without even mentioning that asynchronous alternatives are not only available, but toolkits like Qt were already using them exclusively at that time. The verdict of course was that X11 is broken and fixing that is almost impossible.

Szpadel 6y ago
X11 was designed to everything like OS, it's display server, gui library, font manager, printing server and more, X11 was ment to be like qt or gtk, you tell it that you want to display input and it will draw it for you, the issue now it that basically every app now display every window as one bitmap, because we do not want to use 98% of the x11. Also why do you think there wasn't much development activity in X for years now? There is so much wrong with it's state that nobody wants to work with it. It's like talking: why someone would like to use rust or go or c# when we have cobol? why not just write cobol extension?
- wander_homer 6y ago
  I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Like I never said there's no point in using or developing Wayland. I was addressing the statement, that Wayland was build by former X11 developers, which supposedly makes them purely objective authorities. Of course, that's not the case as, can be seen by the example I gave.
cycomanic 6y ago
No, you're arguing a strawman. What I'm saying is, if you have never even tried writing an X extension, likely never properly looked at the X protocol (let alone it's implementation) you have no leg to stand on to make technical criticism of the people who did the work and then decided it was too much work and build something else.
- jude- 6y ago
  And, have you written a Wayland extension and a X11 extension and learned the difference? No? Then why should we listen to you?
  - taway098123 6y ago
    There isn't really much difference. It's about the same amount of work either way to ship an extension. In Wayland, you make the extension, then you patch every compositor, every toolkit and every application. In X11, you make the extension, then you patch the X server, Xlib, XCB, every window manager, every toolkit, and every application.
    - jude- 6y ago
      The question was related to the relative difficulty of replacing the whole graphics stack vs. patching in support for an X extension that has existed for longer than Wayland. One of these things is far, far less work than the other.
      - taway098123 6y ago
        As someone who has done both, I respectfully disagree.
        jude- 6y ago
        I call bullshit. If you had done so, you would have shared links to them to prove your point.
        taway098123 6y ago
        There's no code I can show you that would be any more convincing than just looking at the code to the X server and then looking at the code to any wayland implementation. There's not anything particularly special about these projects.

Szpadel 6y ago

X11 was designed to everything like OS, it's display server, gui library, font manager, printing server and more, X11 was ment to be like qt or gtk, you tell it that you want to display input and it will draw it for you, the issue now it that basically every app now display every window as one bitmap, because we do not want to use 98% of the x11. Also why do you think there wasn't much development activity in X for years now? There is so much wrong with it's state that nobody wants to work with it. It's like talking: why someone would like to use rust or go or c# when we have cobol? why not just write cobol extension?

wander_homer 6y ago
I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Like I never said there's no point in using or developing Wayland. I was addressing the statement, that Wayland was build by former X11 developers, which supposedly makes them purely objective authorities. Of course, that's not the case as, can be seen by the example I gave.

cycomanic 6y ago

No, you're arguing a strawman. What I'm saying is, if you have never even tried writing an X extension, likely never properly looked at the X protocol (let alone it's implementation) you have no leg to stand on to make technical criticism of the people who did the work and then decided it was too much work and build something else.

jude- 6y ago
And, have you written a Wayland extension and a X11 extension and learned the difference? No? Then why should we listen to you?
- taway098123 6y ago
  There isn't really much difference. It's about the same amount of work either way to ship an extension. In Wayland, you make the extension, then you patch every compositor, every toolkit and every application. In X11, you make the extension, then you patch the X server, Xlib, XCB, every window manager, every toolkit, and every application.
  - jude- 6y ago
    The question was related to the relative difficulty of replacing the whole graphics stack vs. patching in support for an X extension that has existed for longer than Wayland. One of these things is far, far less work than the other.
    - taway098123 6y ago
      As someone who has done both, I respectfully disagree.
      - jude- 6y ago
        I call bullshit. If you had done so, you would have shared links to them to prove your point.
        taway098123 6y ago
        There's no code I can show you that would be any more convincing than just looking at the code to the X server and then looking at the code to any wayland implementation. There's not anything particularly special about these projects.