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I do listen to Rogan and I'm aware of the trans controversy. What he actually took issue with was a trans woman who fought in women's MMA without telling her co

by imgabe 6y ago

I do listen to Rogan and I'm aware of the trans controversy. What he actually took issue with was a trans woman who fought in women's MMA without telling her competitors that she was trans. This creates a serious safety risk in what is already a dangerous sport, and it was irresponsible of her to lie. Rogan didn't even say trans women shouldn't compete, just that they should disclose it so the people they're fighting know what they're getting into and can make an informed decision. If pointing out simple biological realities like "the bodies of people who go through puberty as a male have more muscle mass than the bodies of people who go through puberty as a female" constitutes "promoting hate" then the concept has no meaning. If a phrase is "impossible to define" perhaps it is not a good basis on which to form a policy.

slg 6y ago
You are not being honest about Rogan's opinions on trans athletes. He does not want trans women competing against cisgender women.[1] [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e0qwXgjjDA&t=120s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e0qwXgjjDA&t=120s
- imgabe 6y ago
  In the context of MMA what he said was they should disclose it and ciswomen can choose to go into the fight or not, I am not lying about that. The clip you posted was about weightlifting. If a biological man can call himself a woman and compete in women's weightlifting, why don't we just get rid of the gender categories altogether and have men and women compete together? If we did that, do you think any woman, trans or cis, would ever win a title again? Regardless, reasonable people can disagree about these things. Back to the original question: in what conceivable way does any of this constitute promoting hatred or violence? Rogan said that people who are biologically male should compete with other people who are also biologically male, I don't see where he said we should beat them up or kill them or anything like that? So we are not allowed to have differences of opinion about which competitions people should compete in?
  - slg 6y ago
    This is what you said: >Rogan didn't even say trans women shouldn't compete This is what Rogan said (rough transcript): >[When you let a trans women competing against cisgender women] you are stealing from [cisgender] women, you are stealing victory, you are cheating, you are fucking 100% cheating, and anybody who says they are not is an asshole. You are misrepresenting Rogan's point to make it sound more acceptable. He is not speaking specifically about MMA. He is not talking about other competitors having a choice. He is just straight saying that a trans woman is cheating by competing against cis women.
    - imgabe 6y ago
      He has spoken about this on a number of different occasions. The one clip you happened to find at the top of your google search does not constitute everything he ever said on the topic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQTfyjhvfH8&t=4210s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQTfyjhvfH8&t=4210s This is where he's talking about MMA. There were other occasions where he mentioned disclosing it. I don't remember the exact episode and timestamp. But like I said above (sorry, edited as I thought more). What does any of this have to do with promoting hate or violence? Does thinking people should compete in this or that competition somehow mean you hate them?
      - slg 6y ago
        >The one clip you happened to find at the top of your google search does not constitute everything he ever said on the topic. I never said it did constitute everything he has ever said on the topic. However that isn't the point. Not every episode is being removed. Only some of them are. He can be accepting of trans people on 99 episodes and it doesn't undo being transphobic on the 100th. It is also possible his opinions have evolved over time, but we aren't judging his current opinion. All that maters is what was said on the specific episodes being removed. >What does any of this have to do with promoting hate or violence? Does thinking people should compete in this or that competition somehow mean you hate them? You are the one who brought sports into this. I simply stated he has been repeatedly accused of transphobia. His opinion on sports is part of that, but it isn't the only time he has been called transphobic.
- jonwithoutanh 6y ago
  Would it be fair for cisgender woman to compete in strength sports against https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janae_Kroc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janae_Kroc? Do you truly believe that this person would have no advantage competing against cisgender woman? I think most people would be able to see the obvious advantage Janae gained from formerly being a male.
  - slg 6y ago
    It is just as "fair" as it is for me to compete against LeBron James for a spot in the NBA. Sports are inherently unfair. They take a tremendous amount of work, but it is almost never about work alone. The best athletes are almost always born with physical gifts that are huge outliers. The truth is that trans women have been allowed to compete on the collegiate and international stages for almost two decades at this point. Where are all the transgender athletes dominating competition. Why doesn't Janae Kroc have a Olympic gold medal? This fear is mostly unfounded. EDIT: I did a little more research after posting and I will refer you to the words of Kroc herself[1]: > And yes as hard as it is to believe for some people one year is a sufficient amount of time for HRT to completely eliminate any advantage that person had and there is significant evidence to back this up. This is also why even though trans women have been able to compete in the Olympics since Athens in 2004 we have not had one single trans woman medal at the Olympics... >As far as going forward is concerned it's all about education. This is so much misinformation out there and so many people talking about how transwomen will dominate all women's sports and yet that has never happened. It's very similar to the threat of transwomen in bathrooms concerning child safety. No recorded incidents ever but it was used as a scare tactic to enact laws. [1] - https://old.reddit.com/r/powerlifting/comments/75rd7q/janae_marie_kroc_ama_69pm_edt_live_thread/do8paiv/ https://old.reddit.com/r/powerlifting/comments/75rd7q/janae_...
    - imgabe 6y ago
      According to the Wikipedia page, it seems Janae only competed before transitioning in men's weightlifting, at which point he[1] held several world records. So, to answer your question, the reason Janae does not hold a gold medal in women's weightlifting, is that she never competed as a woman. It is not really comparable to an average, non-professional athlete competing against a professional athlete. A fair comparison would be Lebron James competing against Breanna Stewart (WNBA Finals MVP) or the LA Lakers competing against the Houston Comets. And hey, that might be interesting! But it's not currently what we're doing. Again, if biological sex doesn't make any difference in sports, then why even have separate men's and women's competitions at all? [1] The Wikipedia page notes she uses male pronouns when referring to the time before transitioning.
- throwaway0xa 6y ago
  >He does not want trans women competing against cisgender women. Which is not a transphobic take, it's a logical, biologically correct take.
- RickJWagner 6y ago
  Total honesty on this one: I don't think it's right, either. Biological males are just stronger, in general. It provides a disadvantage to biological females.

by imgabe 6y ago

slg 6y ago

You are not being honest about Rogan's opinions on trans athletes. He does not want trans women competing against cisgender women.[1] [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e0qwXgjjDA&t=120s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e0qwXgjjDA&t=120s

imgabe 6y ago
In the context of MMA what he said was they should disclose it and ciswomen can choose to go into the fight or not, I am not lying about that. The clip you posted was about weightlifting. If a biological man can call himself a woman and compete in women's weightlifting, why don't we just get rid of the gender categories altogether and have men and women compete together? If we did that, do you think any woman, trans or cis, would ever win a title again? Regardless, reasonable people can disagree about these things. Back to the original question: in what conceivable way does any of this constitute promoting hatred or violence? Rogan said that people who are biologically male should compete with other people who are also biologically male, I don't see where he said we should beat them up or kill them or anything like that? So we are not allowed to have differences of opinion about which competitions people should compete in?
- slg 6y ago
  This is what you said: >Rogan didn't even say trans women shouldn't compete This is what Rogan said (rough transcript): >[When you let a trans women competing against cisgender women] you are stealing from [cisgender] women, you are stealing victory, you are cheating, you are fucking 100% cheating, and anybody who says they are not is an asshole. You are misrepresenting Rogan's point to make it sound more acceptable. He is not speaking specifically about MMA. He is not talking about other competitors having a choice. He is just straight saying that a trans woman is cheating by competing against cis women.
  - imgabe 6y ago
    He has spoken about this on a number of different occasions. The one clip you happened to find at the top of your google search does not constitute everything he ever said on the topic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQTfyjhvfH8&t=4210s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQTfyjhvfH8&t=4210s This is where he's talking about MMA. There were other occasions where he mentioned disclosing it. I don't remember the exact episode and timestamp. But like I said above (sorry, edited as I thought more). What does any of this have to do with promoting hate or violence? Does thinking people should compete in this or that competition somehow mean you hate them?
    - slg 6y ago
      >The one clip you happened to find at the top of your google search does not constitute everything he ever said on the topic. I never said it did constitute everything he has ever said on the topic. However that isn't the point. Not every episode is being removed. Only some of them are. He can be accepting of trans people on 99 episodes and it doesn't undo being transphobic on the 100th. It is also possible his opinions have evolved over time, but we aren't judging his current opinion. All that maters is what was said on the specific episodes being removed. >What does any of this have to do with promoting hate or violence? Does thinking people should compete in this or that competition somehow mean you hate them? You are the one who brought sports into this. I simply stated he has been repeatedly accused of transphobia. His opinion on sports is part of that, but it isn't the only time he has been called transphobic.
jonwithoutanh 6y ago
Would it be fair for cisgender woman to compete in strength sports against https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janae_Kroc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janae_Kroc? Do you truly believe that this person would have no advantage competing against cisgender woman? I think most people would be able to see the obvious advantage Janae gained from formerly being a male.
- slg 6y ago
  It is just as "fair" as it is for me to compete against LeBron James for a spot in the NBA. Sports are inherently unfair. They take a tremendous amount of work, but it is almost never about work alone. The best athletes are almost always born with physical gifts that are huge outliers. The truth is that trans women have been allowed to compete on the collegiate and international stages for almost two decades at this point. Where are all the transgender athletes dominating competition. Why doesn't Janae Kroc have a Olympic gold medal? This fear is mostly unfounded. EDIT: I did a little more research after posting and I will refer you to the words of Kroc herself[1]: > And yes as hard as it is to believe for some people one year is a sufficient amount of time for HRT to completely eliminate any advantage that person had and there is significant evidence to back this up. This is also why even though trans women have been able to compete in the Olympics since Athens in 2004 we have not had one single trans woman medal at the Olympics... >As far as going forward is concerned it's all about education. This is so much misinformation out there and so many people talking about how transwomen will dominate all women's sports and yet that has never happened. It's very similar to the threat of transwomen in bathrooms concerning child safety. No recorded incidents ever but it was used as a scare tactic to enact laws. [1] - https://old.reddit.com/r/powerlifting/comments/75rd7q/janae_marie_kroc_ama_69pm_edt_live_thread/do8paiv/ https://old.reddit.com/r/powerlifting/comments/75rd7q/janae_...
  - imgabe 6y ago
    According to the Wikipedia page, it seems Janae only competed before transitioning in men's weightlifting, at which point he[1] held several world records. So, to answer your question, the reason Janae does not hold a gold medal in women's weightlifting, is that she never competed as a woman. It is not really comparable to an average, non-professional athlete competing against a professional athlete. A fair comparison would be Lebron James competing against Breanna Stewart (WNBA Finals MVP) or the LA Lakers competing against the Houston Comets. And hey, that might be interesting! But it's not currently what we're doing. Again, if biological sex doesn't make any difference in sports, then why even have separate men's and women's competitions at all? [1] The Wikipedia page notes she uses male pronouns when referring to the time before transitioning.
throwaway0xa 6y ago
>He does not want trans women competing against cisgender women. Which is not a transphobic take, it's a logical, biologically correct take.
RickJWagner 6y ago
Total honesty on this one: I don't think it's right, either. Biological males are just stronger, in general. It provides a disadvantage to biological females.