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Could you explain how craft baking is miles ahead in Oregon? I'm quite curious because I started baking at home recently. Just for fun, I tried comparing perce

Could you explain how craft baking is miles ahead in Oregon? I'm quite curious because I started baking at home recently. Just for fun, I tried comparing perceptions and expectations about what people consider "good bread" in different cultures. Just to be clear what I'm talking about - for me personally, factors that make up good bread would be: * Long proofing times and use of very little yeast in order to allow flavor to develop (as well as reducing FODMAPs) * Use of grain types other than wheat, especially dinkel and rye, but also rare types such as Khorasan or emmer wheat * Ideally (and if appropriate), using sourdough as a leavening agent However, when I had a look at some American artisanal baking content - both recipes and videos - my impression was that it was very focused on (rather boring) wheat bread. One particular recipe I found claimed to be a real rye bread, but it turned out that they meant only about 30% rye content [1], adding an excessive amount of molasses (in my opinion, sugar has no place in a bread) as well as an excessive amount of yeast with less than an hour of proofing time. Chain bakeries and supermarket bread are on the rise in Germany as well, but I guess we all agree that their quality is limited in comparison to craft bakeries. PS: I realize that my question above might come across as a little confrontational, but please let me assure you that it really is well-meant. [1] I should mention that there's a very likely reason why they didn't go for 100% rye: Enzymes naturally occurring in rye cause problems during baking (resulting in soggy bread) if more than about 30% of the flour is rye, unless you are using sourdough. Judging from the recipe complexity, the author didn't want to burden their readers with that topic.

Jun8 5y ago
Can you point to some good resources to get started on artisanal bread baking for a complete beginner?
- sqrt17 5y ago
  If you have a Masterclass subscription, they have a course on making sourdough bread (from the owner of a Parisian bread shop that has been making sourdough bread for some >100 years). Or Joshua Weissman has you covered https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJpIzr2sCDE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJpIzr2sCDE
- themulticaster 5y ago
  Hmm, that's a difficult question for me because I learnt using some books by a blogger called Lutz Geißler [1], but I'm afraid they're written in German and there's no translated version. I haven't yet found any resources written in English that fulfill my personal checklist, but that's probably because I haven't looked hard enough. My recommendations on what to look for: 1. This should be rather obvious, but nevertheless: Avoid bread baking machines. They are trading a lot of quality, customizability and enjoyment for a little convenience. 2. Avoid the temptation of recipes that promise fast results. As a rule of thumb: If the recipe calls for an entire or even multiple packages of yeast and proofing time is less than an hour, the recipe is trading all the flavor in exchange for fast results. Tiny amounts of yeast (seriously, 0.1g of fresh yeast is a common occurence) and proofing time measured in many hours or even days (in the fridge) are a requirement for good bread. But don't worry if the proofing time is that long: You're not actually working during the proofing time - while proofing, the dough is working for you! With a little planning, most recipes can be integrated into the working day. However, the recipes are not everything. The reason I personally like Geißler's approach to baking is that it embodies the rather scientific craft of baking: Essentially, you have a number of parameters (proofing time, dough temperature, flour composition) that all influence the final bread. Geißler explains the consequences of adjusting these parameters, which allows you to actually understand what's happening inside the dough. Ideally, you shouldn't blindly follow the recipe's instructions, but rather observe the actual progress of the dough and accordingly. For example, imagine your recipe calls for 90 minutes of final rise time (after bulk fermentation and shaping) at 20-22 °C. However, your room temperature is significantly higher at the moment. Instead of waiting the full 90 minutes, you check on the dough after 60 minutes. Using the finger test (pressing a finger into the dough and checking how far it rebounds), you determine the dough is not yet ready and give it another ten minutes. It is precisely this controllable, observable and empirical process that I like about bread baking. [1] https://www.ploetzblog.de/ https://www.ploetzblog.de/
  - zwieback 5y ago
    Wow, the Geißler blog is amazing, I'm sure I'll return to this resource many times, thanks for pointing it out.
- zwieback 5y ago
  I can recommend two books: Tartine I and Italian Baker. There are many like this but these two I used and liked. https://www.amazon.com/Tartine-Bread-Chad-Robertson/dp/0811870413/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=tartini&qid=1618018664&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyWDlPUzRTUVBWTVpJJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzc5ODE1TDZNNUZTWVMwSFRTJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA1NjIwMzEzVFY0TzZLS0cxV1NCJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ== https://www.amazon.com/Tartine-Bread-Chad-Robertson/dp/08118... https://www.amazon.com/Italian-Baker-Revised-Countryside-Its-Focaccia/dp/1607741067/ref=sr_1_1?crid=EQ2VMOU36950&dchild=1&keywords=carol+field+the+italian+baker&qid=1618018631&sprefix=carol+field+italian%2Caps%2C334&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Italian-Baker-Revised-Countryside-Its...
subpixel 5y ago
The craft $ANYTHING scene is a bigger deal in the US, but you can get better beer, bread, or cheese at almost any decent shop in Germany. There is a lot of Americanized crap in the stores, but if you know enough to avoid that, the bar for what is acceptable quality is pronouncedly higher, across the board. In the US the standards are ... flexible, the patrons can be sold all sorts of myths bc they don’t know much to begin with, and you wind up with things like $9 slices of toast and all ‘craft’ beer coming in a 16oz can with a wacky sticker on it and tasting like pine tar. Everyone’s happy though bc they had to wait in line for these pleasures and had ample time to post online about what they were doing! If you speak German there are a handful of fantastic documentaries about village bakeries and breweries produced by BR, including some cool stories about the next generation of those trades finding new markets. It’s hard to compete with the allure of the new, even when you’re making the best beer in the world the same way it’s been made for hundreds of years.
zwieback 5y ago
Take a look at what the guys from Tartine in San Franscisco or Ken's Artisan Bakery in Portland are doing, lots of interesting grains, natural fermentation, etc. Here's an example: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1452114307/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=5BCBe6cpwro8QkYlYmfzVw&hsa_cr_id=6369495310401&pd_rd_plhdr=t&pd_rd_r=5a2b31d1-9439-4309-837d-43345ee0ff18&pd_rd_w=NEg8Z&pd_rd_wg=NFNMl&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_asin_2_img https://www.amazon.com/dp/1452114307/ref=redir_mobile_deskto... I'm not sure about rye, I think 100% rye might be a flavor lots of people don't like, so it's usually mixed in with wheat. Sourdough is everywhere here, although I have to admit a lot of it tastes too sour for me. The other thing I suspect is happening is that the German guild system keeps experimenters from trying out new and unusual things since it's hard to even open a bakery without going through all the proper training. Here in the US the quality is much more variable but any hipster with a new idea can try out if people will like their products.
- themulticaster 5y ago
  Now that you mention Tartine, I remember reading about them previously. The books are quite interesting. Regarding sourdough sourness: Sourdough bread doesn't have to be very sour. Certain parameters influence the perceived sourness, and it is definitely possible to bake sourdough bread that is very mild and barely sour. Have a look at the classic Italian lievito madre (mother yeast) or French levain liquide - the former is used for panettone, a special sweet bread commonly eaten around christmas, the latter can be used for croissants. I've baked a few sweet loaves that are only leavened using sourdough (with no added baker's yeast), yet they have essentially no discernable sourness. I agree regarding the guild system.
- em-bee 5y ago
  i don't think it is guild rules per se, but market demands. in the US a craft bakery is something uncommon and will stand out. in germany the same craft bakery has to compete with chain bakeries and supermarkets, and it's much harder for such a bakery to be noticed. even some chain bakeries bake their own bread in the store, and are operated more like a franchise. so you could have a good baker hidden under a chain brand. the quality difference between supermarkets, chain bakeries and individually owned bakeries is much smaller too. and people expect all the bakeries to have the same popular items. in the US people will go to a craft bakery because they want to have something different that they can't get in the supermarket. whereas in germany people going to a bakery still expect to get the same bread that they eat every day and are less likely to seek out a specialist shop because the supermarket has most of the same items anyways.

Jun8 5y ago

Can you point to some good resources to get started on artisanal bread baking for a complete beginner?

sqrt17 5y ago
If you have a Masterclass subscription, they have a course on making sourdough bread (from the owner of a Parisian bread shop that has been making sourdough bread for some >100 years). Or Joshua Weissman has you covered https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJpIzr2sCDE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJpIzr2sCDE
themulticaster 5y ago
Hmm, that's a difficult question for me because I learnt using some books by a blogger called Lutz Geißler [1], but I'm afraid they're written in German and there's no translated version. I haven't yet found any resources written in English that fulfill my personal checklist, but that's probably because I haven't looked hard enough. My recommendations on what to look for: 1. This should be rather obvious, but nevertheless: Avoid bread baking machines. They are trading a lot of quality, customizability and enjoyment for a little convenience. 2. Avoid the temptation of recipes that promise fast results. As a rule of thumb: If the recipe calls for an entire or even multiple packages of yeast and proofing time is less than an hour, the recipe is trading all the flavor in exchange for fast results. Tiny amounts of yeast (seriously, 0.1g of fresh yeast is a common occurence) and proofing time measured in many hours or even days (in the fridge) are a requirement for good bread. But don't worry if the proofing time is that long: You're not actually working during the proofing time - while proofing, the dough is working for you! With a little planning, most recipes can be integrated into the working day. However, the recipes are not everything. The reason I personally like Geißler's approach to baking is that it embodies the rather scientific craft of baking: Essentially, you have a number of parameters (proofing time, dough temperature, flour composition) that all influence the final bread. Geißler explains the consequences of adjusting these parameters, which allows you to actually understand what's happening inside the dough. Ideally, you shouldn't blindly follow the recipe's instructions, but rather observe the actual progress of the dough and accordingly. For example, imagine your recipe calls for 90 minutes of final rise time (after bulk fermentation and shaping) at 20-22 °C. However, your room temperature is significantly higher at the moment. Instead of waiting the full 90 minutes, you check on the dough after 60 minutes. Using the finger test (pressing a finger into the dough and checking how far it rebounds), you determine the dough is not yet ready and give it another ten minutes. It is precisely this controllable, observable and empirical process that I like about bread baking. [1] https://www.ploetzblog.de/ https://www.ploetzblog.de/
- zwieback 5y ago
  Wow, the Geißler blog is amazing, I'm sure I'll return to this resource many times, thanks for pointing it out.
zwieback 5y ago
I can recommend two books: Tartine I and Italian Baker. There are many like this but these two I used and liked. https://www.amazon.com/Tartine-Bread-Chad-Robertson/dp/0811870413/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=tartini&qid=1618018664&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyWDlPUzRTUVBWTVpJJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzc5ODE1TDZNNUZTWVMwSFRTJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA1NjIwMzEzVFY0TzZLS0cxV1NCJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ== https://www.amazon.com/Tartine-Bread-Chad-Robertson/dp/08118... https://www.amazon.com/Italian-Baker-Revised-Countryside-Its-Focaccia/dp/1607741067/ref=sr_1_1?crid=EQ2VMOU36950&dchild=1&keywords=carol+field+the+italian+baker&qid=1618018631&sprefix=carol+field+italian%2Caps%2C334&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Italian-Baker-Revised-Countryside-Its...

subpixel 5y ago

The craft $ANYTHING scene is a bigger deal in the US, but you can get better beer, bread, or cheese at almost any decent shop in Germany. There is a lot of Americanized crap in the stores, but if you know enough to avoid that, the bar for what is acceptable quality is pronouncedly higher, across the board. In the US the standards are ... flexible, the patrons can be sold all sorts of myths bc they don’t know much to begin with, and you wind up with things like $9 slices of toast and all ‘craft’ beer coming in a 16oz can with a wacky sticker on it and tasting like pine tar. Everyone’s happy though bc they had to wait in line for these pleasures and had ample time to post online about what they were doing! If you speak German there are a handful of fantastic documentaries about village bakeries and breweries produced by BR, including some cool stories about the next generation of those trades finding new markets. It’s hard to compete with the allure of the new, even when you’re making the best beer in the world the same way it’s been made for hundreds of years.

zwieback 5y ago

Take a look at what the guys from Tartine in San Franscisco or Ken's Artisan Bakery in Portland are doing, lots of interesting grains, natural fermentation, etc. Here's an example: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1452114307/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=5BCBe6cpwro8QkYlYmfzVw&hsa_cr_id=6369495310401&pd_rd_plhdr=t&pd_rd_r=5a2b31d1-9439-4309-837d-43345ee0ff18&pd_rd_w=NEg8Z&pd_rd_wg=NFNMl&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_asin_2_img https://www.amazon.com/dp/1452114307/ref=redir_mobile_deskto... I'm not sure about rye, I think 100% rye might be a flavor lots of people don't like, so it's usually mixed in with wheat. Sourdough is everywhere here, although I have to admit a lot of it tastes too sour for me. The other thing I suspect is happening is that the German guild system keeps experimenters from trying out new and unusual things since it's hard to even open a bakery without going through all the proper training. Here in the US the quality is much more variable but any hipster with a new idea can try out if people will like their products.

themulticaster 5y ago
Now that you mention Tartine, I remember reading about them previously. The books are quite interesting. Regarding sourdough sourness: Sourdough bread doesn't have to be very sour. Certain parameters influence the perceived sourness, and it is definitely possible to bake sourdough bread that is very mild and barely sour. Have a look at the classic Italian lievito madre (mother yeast) or French levain liquide - the former is used for panettone, a special sweet bread commonly eaten around christmas, the latter can be used for croissants. I've baked a few sweet loaves that are only leavened using sourdough (with no added baker's yeast), yet they have essentially no discernable sourness. I agree regarding the guild system.
em-bee 5y ago
i don't think it is guild rules per se, but market demands. in the US a craft bakery is something uncommon and will stand out. in germany the same craft bakery has to compete with chain bakeries and supermarkets, and it's much harder for such a bakery to be noticed. even some chain bakeries bake their own bread in the store, and are operated more like a franchise. so you could have a good baker hidden under a chain brand. the quality difference between supermarkets, chain bakeries and individually owned bakeries is much smaller too. and people expect all the bakeries to have the same popular items. in the US people will go to a craft bakery because they want to have something different that they can't get in the supermarket. whereas in germany people going to a bakery still expect to get the same bread that they eat every day and are less likely to seek out a specialist shop because the supermarket has most of the same items anyways.