4 ms·

The evidence that masks work at a community level (outside of medical institutions) is very questionable as well so that could fall into the 'rain dance' catego

The evidence that masks work at a community level (outside of medical institutions) is very questionable as well so that could fall into the 'rain dance' category. https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence/ https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence/ https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577 https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577

bluefirebrand 6y ago
This kind of reminds me of an infographic at my doctors office about birth control. It shows stats on how many unwanted pregnancies happen when using each form of birth control. It's split into two-columns: How many pregnancies when it is used perfectly, vs how many pregnancies when it used typically. One could look at it and conclude that most birth control isn't very effective at a community level, which is more like the "typical use" column. The stat that's missing is the rate of pregnancies caused by not using any birth control at all. I imagine that compared to that stat, even the worst of the typical use stats look pretty good. Then you would conclude that you should probably wear a condom. Same goes for a mask, in my opinion.
- nickthemagicman 6y ago
  A condom is the perfect example. A condom is typically used once and has pores small enough to block designated particles. This is how medical masks in a medical establishment is used. Cloth masks at a community level are basically wearing the same condom everyday and the condom is full of holes. Its a 'rain dance', and just makes people feel better, which does have it's benefits, like religion or nationalism. That's why Fauci is saying to double or triple up on cloth masks, because cloth masks reused daily are minimally effective, which is what the vast majority of the population does. Here's a real actual scientific article about it. https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577 https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577
  - aqme28 6y ago
    That article doesn't support any kind of conclusion that masks are ineffective. It ranks the effectiveness of masks, but has no "maskless" group to compare against.
    - nickthemagicman 6y ago
      "Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%." How do you test particle penetration in a 'maskless' group? Isn't it implied that the 'maskless' group would have 100% particle penetration?
      - mapme 6y ago
        Isn’t that direct evidence that medical masks work? Which doesn’t support your assertion that groups all masks together. Thus, your argument appears against cloth masks, not medical grade (surgical, n95). https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/bmjopen/5/4/e006577/F2.large.jpg https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/bmjopen/5/4/e006577/F2.large...
        nickthemagicman 6y ago
        Yes absolutly. There is evidence that masks do work if combined with proper usage. The evidence shows that changing masks frequently combined with using medical grade material is effective. The current mask recommendations for the USA though... is folk science akin to using leeches or trepanation. And no one demands any scientific rigour they just follow along blindly trusting whoever is on the T.V.
        mapme 6y ago
        I wish the US had gone harder on telling people to get quality masks. Personally I use only n95 from US manufacturers that have a tight seal around my face. I understand before that there were supply constraints, but also there are better fabrics than just cotton that are widely available such as chiffon, which block/filter a ton more than cotton and is widely available.
  - bluefirebrand 6y ago
    > Cloth masks at a community level are basically wearing the same condom everyday and the condom is full of holes. That's not an accurate comparison at all, and I think you have completely missed the point. Using a condom perfectly results in the fewest pregnancies. Using it typically (ie, once in a while you have one break or slip off) results in more pregnancies than perfect use, but still many less than unprotected sex. The same logic should hold for masks. Using them perfectly (ie single use, medical grade quality) results in the fewest infections. Using them typically (ie, non-medical grade cloth mask, wearing the same one more than once) results in more than the perfect use but still less than being unmasked. It is not a "rain dance" If you are trying to make an argument that wearing a mask makes you equally as likely to get infected as being unmasked, I don't know what to tell you. You're just straight up wrong. Edit - because you added your article link after I was already replying: you cannot generalize the usefulness of masks on healthcare workers who are typically very close to patients and breathing the same air as them, touching the same surfaces as them for extended periods of time to the usefulness to a community of people who are supposed to be sticking 6 feet apart. Yeah if you are standing a foot from a sick person wearing a mask and they cough in your eye, and you get sick, it's gonna seem like the mask did nothing.
    - nickthemagicman 6y ago
      Using a condom that leaks repeatedly results in MORE pregnancies. Because the biological agent is never disposed of. And it keeps being applied over and over day after day. It's why you wouldn't want your surgeon to walk in to your operation with the mask he just used from the previous operation. It's also basic medical hygiene theory. The same reason that washing hands is effective because germs are transmissable via numerous vectors.
      - bluefirebrand 6y ago
        You're doing some serious mental gymnastics here. Yes, using things that are broken means they don't perform their intended function very effectively. That doesn't imply that using non-broken versions of those things is less effective somehow. That's not how the transitive property works. Edit - again because you're super edit happy. > It's why you wouldn't want your surgeon to walk in to your operation with the mask he just used from the previous operation No, ideally of course not. But given the choice between "surgeon wearing the old mask" and "surgeon wearing no mask at all" I think I prefer the old mask. Would you seriously just prefer the surgeon to breathe directly into whatever open cavity you have during the surgery?
  - quicklime 6y ago
    Wearing a cloth mask in a community setting is like leaving your pants on while dry humping someone. It will reduce the chance of pregnancy :)
    - nickthemagicman 6y ago
      Except in this case your sperm can also get you pregnant and you wear the same ejaculate covered pants day after day that numerous other strangers have ejaculated on as well. And you put those ejaculate covered pants directly on your face.
- trhway 6y ago
  Comparing masks and birth control isn't meaningful until we add enforcement component.
Tarsul 6y ago
well, rain-dancing works against covid. What I mean is that being cautious works, just thinking about masks (which means most probably that you're taking also other measures like keeping a good distance to people) helps.
- astrange 6y ago
  Keeping a specific distance to people doesn't really matter though. That rule just satisfies a demand for a rule that can be easily implemented at scale, like moving school desks so they're farther apart. An actual better rule is "don't be inside with other people without masks".
  - spookthesunset 6y ago
    A far more effective rule would be government backed paid sick leave. That might actually do something to slow the spread of covid. Masks and lockdowns are trivial for politicians to implement. Especially with emergency powers. They don't have to go through any political process to get done. It doesn't even matter if they work at all. It shows they are "taking it serious" and "saving lives". Even if the measures harm society far more than if they did nothing at all. Actual non-pharmaceutical things that would truly slow covid require 10 or 100x more political willpower than masks or lockdowns. Masks and lockdowns will very much be looked upon the same way we look at rain dances and goat sacrifices.... it's just humans fooling themselves into thinking they have more control over mother nature than they actually do.
    - astrange 6y ago
      > A far more effective rule would be government backed paid sick leave. That might actually do something to slow the spread of covid. We did that, it was called PPP and PUA. But many people were "essential workers" or didn't want to quit their jobs just because we were paying them to.
sixothree 6y ago
I’m not sure that’s the correct interpretation from the link you provided.
sharken 6y ago
Not sure why you have been down voted, the only recent large-scale study of face masks worn by regular people, did not reach any consensus. Common sense would say that wearing something covering your nose and mouth is better than nothing at all, but this fails to take into account how the masks are treated by regular people. I firmly believe that masks do not change anything significantly, at least until a study can prove the opposite. What matters now is getting back to the pre-corona situation without restrictions. Those who wants to be vaccinated on a yearly basis should absolutely do so, but those who choose not to should absolutely be free to enjoy all aspects of life without restrictions.
- spookthesunset 6y ago
  According to "smart people who believe in science" groupthink, masks work. Period. It's settled science. Don't ask questions. Only deniers ask questions. Despite all the pro-mask science being based on in-the-heat-of-the-moment research done in the middle of a highly politicized pandemic. Prior to all this, the science on masks was completely inconclusive. And there was literally no research done on the effectiveness of shutting down large swaths of human life for more than a year. Though it shouldn't take an expert to deduce that it has profound negative impacts on economic, social and mental health. We are in the middle of a massive, uncontrolled experiment with billions participating without any consent. The idea that smart well meaning people are supposed all just fall in line and agree with the prevailing groupthink is almost despotic. I shudder to think of what would happen if "the experts" even so much as hinted at it being okay for people to use violence against non believers. It's terrifying, honestly.
  - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
    Unfortunately, by the time we could actually do all the experiments to find the best ways to handle the pandemic, it would already be over. Everybody is just doing the best they can with the knowledge they have. With any luck, we will learn some things that will help us deal better with the next pandemic.
    - 6y ago

bluefirebrand 6y ago

This kind of reminds me of an infographic at my doctors office about birth control. It shows stats on how many unwanted pregnancies happen when using each form of birth control. It's split into two-columns: How many pregnancies when it is used perfectly, vs how many pregnancies when it used typically. One could look at it and conclude that most birth control isn't very effective at a community level, which is more like the "typical use" column. The stat that's missing is the rate of pregnancies caused by not using any birth control at all. I imagine that compared to that stat, even the worst of the typical use stats look pretty good. Then you would conclude that you should probably wear a condom. Same goes for a mask, in my opinion.

nickthemagicman 6y ago
A condom is the perfect example. A condom is typically used once and has pores small enough to block designated particles. This is how medical masks in a medical establishment is used. Cloth masks at a community level are basically wearing the same condom everyday and the condom is full of holes. Its a 'rain dance', and just makes people feel better, which does have it's benefits, like religion or nationalism. That's why Fauci is saying to double or triple up on cloth masks, because cloth masks reused daily are minimally effective, which is what the vast majority of the population does. Here's a real actual scientific article about it. https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577 https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577
- aqme28 6y ago
  That article doesn't support any kind of conclusion that masks are ineffective. It ranks the effectiveness of masks, but has no "maskless" group to compare against.
  - nickthemagicman 6y ago
    "Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%." How do you test particle penetration in a 'maskless' group? Isn't it implied that the 'maskless' group would have 100% particle penetration?
    - mapme 6y ago
      Isn’t that direct evidence that medical masks work? Which doesn’t support your assertion that groups all masks together. Thus, your argument appears against cloth masks, not medical grade (surgical, n95). https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/bmjopen/5/4/e006577/F2.large.jpg https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/bmjopen/5/4/e006577/F2.large...
      - nickthemagicman 6y ago
        Yes absolutly. There is evidence that masks do work if combined with proper usage. The evidence shows that changing masks frequently combined with using medical grade material is effective. The current mask recommendations for the USA though... is folk science akin to using leeches or trepanation. And no one demands any scientific rigour they just follow along blindly trusting whoever is on the T.V.
        mapme 6y ago
        I wish the US had gone harder on telling people to get quality masks. Personally I use only n95 from US manufacturers that have a tight seal around my face. I understand before that there were supply constraints, but also there are better fabrics than just cotton that are widely available such as chiffon, which block/filter a ton more than cotton and is widely available.
- bluefirebrand 6y ago
  > Cloth masks at a community level are basically wearing the same condom everyday and the condom is full of holes. That's not an accurate comparison at all, and I think you have completely missed the point. Using a condom perfectly results in the fewest pregnancies. Using it typically (ie, once in a while you have one break or slip off) results in more pregnancies than perfect use, but still many less than unprotected sex. The same logic should hold for masks. Using them perfectly (ie single use, medical grade quality) results in the fewest infections. Using them typically (ie, non-medical grade cloth mask, wearing the same one more than once) results in more than the perfect use but still less than being unmasked. It is not a "rain dance" If you are trying to make an argument that wearing a mask makes you equally as likely to get infected as being unmasked, I don't know what to tell you. You're just straight up wrong. Edit - because you added your article link after I was already replying: you cannot generalize the usefulness of masks on healthcare workers who are typically very close to patients and breathing the same air as them, touching the same surfaces as them for extended periods of time to the usefulness to a community of people who are supposed to be sticking 6 feet apart. Yeah if you are standing a foot from a sick person wearing a mask and they cough in your eye, and you get sick, it's gonna seem like the mask did nothing.
  - nickthemagicman 6y ago
    Using a condom that leaks repeatedly results in MORE pregnancies. Because the biological agent is never disposed of. And it keeps being applied over and over day after day. It's why you wouldn't want your surgeon to walk in to your operation with the mask he just used from the previous operation. It's also basic medical hygiene theory. The same reason that washing hands is effective because germs are transmissable via numerous vectors.
    - bluefirebrand 6y ago
      You're doing some serious mental gymnastics here. Yes, using things that are broken means they don't perform their intended function very effectively. That doesn't imply that using non-broken versions of those things is less effective somehow. That's not how the transitive property works. Edit - again because you're super edit happy. > It's why you wouldn't want your surgeon to walk in to your operation with the mask he just used from the previous operation No, ideally of course not. But given the choice between "surgeon wearing the old mask" and "surgeon wearing no mask at all" I think I prefer the old mask. Would you seriously just prefer the surgeon to breathe directly into whatever open cavity you have during the surgery?
- quicklime 6y ago
  Wearing a cloth mask in a community setting is like leaving your pants on while dry humping someone. It will reduce the chance of pregnancy :)
  - nickthemagicman 6y ago
    Except in this case your sperm can also get you pregnant and you wear the same ejaculate covered pants day after day that numerous other strangers have ejaculated on as well. And you put those ejaculate covered pants directly on your face.
trhway 6y ago
Comparing masks and birth control isn't meaningful until we add enforcement component.

Tarsul 6y ago

well, rain-dancing works against covid. What I mean is that being cautious works, just thinking about masks (which means most probably that you're taking also other measures like keeping a good distance to people) helps.

astrange 6y ago
Keeping a specific distance to people doesn't really matter though. That rule just satisfies a demand for a rule that can be easily implemented at scale, like moving school desks so they're farther apart. An actual better rule is "don't be inside with other people without masks".
- spookthesunset 6y ago
  A far more effective rule would be government backed paid sick leave. That might actually do something to slow the spread of covid. Masks and lockdowns are trivial for politicians to implement. Especially with emergency powers. They don't have to go through any political process to get done. It doesn't even matter if they work at all. It shows they are "taking it serious" and "saving lives". Even if the measures harm society far more than if they did nothing at all. Actual non-pharmaceutical things that would truly slow covid require 10 or 100x more political willpower than masks or lockdowns. Masks and lockdowns will very much be looked upon the same way we look at rain dances and goat sacrifices.... it's just humans fooling themselves into thinking they have more control over mother nature than they actually do.
  - astrange 6y ago
    > A far more effective rule would be government backed paid sick leave. That might actually do something to slow the spread of covid. We did that, it was called PPP and PUA. But many people were "essential workers" or didn't want to quit their jobs just because we were paying them to.

sixothree 6y ago

I’m not sure that’s the correct interpretation from the link you provided.

sharken 6y ago

Not sure why you have been down voted, the only recent large-scale study of face masks worn by regular people, did not reach any consensus. Common sense would say that wearing something covering your nose and mouth is better than nothing at all, but this fails to take into account how the masks are treated by regular people. I firmly believe that masks do not change anything significantly, at least until a study can prove the opposite. What matters now is getting back to the pre-corona situation without restrictions. Those who wants to be vaccinated on a yearly basis should absolutely do so, but those who choose not to should absolutely be free to enjoy all aspects of life without restrictions.

spookthesunset 6y ago
According to "smart people who believe in science" groupthink, masks work. Period. It's settled science. Don't ask questions. Only deniers ask questions. Despite all the pro-mask science being based on in-the-heat-of-the-moment research done in the middle of a highly politicized pandemic. Prior to all this, the science on masks was completely inconclusive. And there was literally no research done on the effectiveness of shutting down large swaths of human life for more than a year. Though it shouldn't take an expert to deduce that it has profound negative impacts on economic, social and mental health. We are in the middle of a massive, uncontrolled experiment with billions participating without any consent. The idea that smart well meaning people are supposed all just fall in line and agree with the prevailing groupthink is almost despotic. I shudder to think of what would happen if "the experts" even so much as hinted at it being okay for people to use violence against non believers. It's terrifying, honestly.
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  Unfortunately, by the time we could actually do all the experiments to find the best ways to handle the pandemic, it would already be over. Everybody is just doing the best they can with the knowledge they have. With any luck, we will learn some things that will help us deal better with the next pandemic.
  - 6y ago