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I grew up in Stuttgart and good pretzels were easy to find. On the last couple trips I found that almost all the craft bakeries have closed up and most people b

I grew up in Stuttgart and good pretzels were easy to find. On the last couple trips I found that almost all the craft bakeries have closed up and most people buy stuff from the chain bakeries, still good quality but not like I remember. I'll check out Frank on my next visit, hopefully this summer. At this point craft baking, at least here in Oregon, is miles ahead of Germany. Same goes for coffee and beer, times sure have changed. One thing I still miss are the meat and cheese counters you can find everywhere in Germany and only in higher end stores here.

themulticaster 6y ago
Could you explain how craft baking is miles ahead in Oregon? I'm quite curious because I started baking at home recently. Just for fun, I tried comparing perceptions and expectations about what people consider "good bread" in different cultures. Just to be clear what I'm talking about - for me personally, factors that make up good bread would be: * Long proofing times and use of very little yeast in order to allow flavor to develop (as well as reducing FODMAPs) * Use of grain types other than wheat, especially dinkel and rye, but also rare types such as Khorasan or emmer wheat * Ideally (and if appropriate), using sourdough as a leavening agent However, when I had a look at some American artisanal baking content - both recipes and videos - my impression was that it was very focused on (rather boring) wheat bread. One particular recipe I found claimed to be a real rye bread, but it turned out that they meant only about 30% rye content [1], adding an excessive amount of molasses (in my opinion, sugar has no place in a bread) as well as an excessive amount of yeast with less than an hour of proofing time. Chain bakeries and supermarket bread are on the rise in Germany as well, but I guess we all agree that their quality is limited in comparison to craft bakeries. PS: I realize that my question above might come across as a little confrontational, but please let me assure you that it really is well-meant. [1] I should mention that there's a very likely reason why they didn't go for 100% rye: Enzymes naturally occurring in rye cause problems during baking (resulting in soggy bread) if more than about 30% of the flour is rye, unless you are using sourdough. Judging from the recipe complexity, the author didn't want to burden their readers with that topic.
- Jun8 6y ago
  Can you point to some good resources to get started on artisanal bread baking for a complete beginner?
  - sqrt17 6y ago
    If you have a Masterclass subscription, they have a course on making sourdough bread (from the owner of a Parisian bread shop that has been making sourdough bread for some >100 years). Or Joshua Weissman has you covered https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJpIzr2sCDE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJpIzr2sCDE
  - themulticaster 6y ago
    Hmm, that's a difficult question for me because I learnt using some books by a blogger called Lutz Geißler [1], but I'm afraid they're written in German and there's no translated version. I haven't yet found any resources written in English that fulfill my personal checklist, but that's probably because I haven't looked hard enough. My recommendations on what to look for: 1. This should be rather obvious, but nevertheless: Avoid bread baking machines. They are trading a lot of quality, customizability and enjoyment for a little convenience. 2. Avoid the temptation of recipes that promise fast results. As a rule of thumb: If the recipe calls for an entire or even multiple packages of yeast and proofing time is less than an hour, the recipe is trading all the flavor in exchange for fast results. Tiny amounts of yeast (seriously, 0.1g of fresh yeast is a common occurence) and proofing time measured in many hours or even days (in the fridge) are a requirement for good bread. But don't worry if the proofing time is that long: You're not actually working during the proofing time - while proofing, the dough is working for you! With a little planning, most recipes can be integrated into the working day. However, the recipes are not everything. The reason I personally like Geißler's approach to baking is that it embodies the rather scientific craft of baking: Essentially, you have a number of parameters (proofing time, dough temperature, flour composition) that all influence the final bread. Geißler explains the consequences of adjusting these parameters, which allows you to actually understand what's happening inside the dough. Ideally, you shouldn't blindly follow the recipe's instructions, but rather observe the actual progress of the dough and accordingly. For example, imagine your recipe calls for 90 minutes of final rise time (after bulk fermentation and shaping) at 20-22 °C. However, your room temperature is significantly higher at the moment. Instead of waiting the full 90 minutes, you check on the dough after 60 minutes. Using the finger test (pressing a finger into the dough and checking how far it rebounds), you determine the dough is not yet ready and give it another ten minutes. It is precisely this controllable, observable and empirical process that I like about bread baking. [1] https://www.ploetzblog.de/ https://www.ploetzblog.de/
CurtHagenlocher 6y ago
My aunt lives in the Rotebühlstraße and one of the highlights of visiting her as a kid in the 1970s was buying pretzels at the bakery two blocks away. Twenty years later, the "bakery" was just a storefront and the actual baking happened at a central location elsewhere in the city.
- CurtHagenlocher 6y ago
  In any event, I bake my own Laugenbrezel now :).
  - zwieback 6y ago
    Good man. Do you boil them in "Lauge"? That's always the tricky part where things can get soggy. And getting something with a high enough pH is sometimes a bit tricky.
    - CurtHagenlocher 6y ago
      I don't boil them in lye; just soak them in it for 30-60 seconds and then bake them in the oven.
spaetzleesser 6y ago
“At this point craft baking, at least here in Oregon, is miles ahead of Germany. Same goes for coffee and beer, times sure have changed.” I think Americans tend to overdo things and make them too fancy. German bakery items often tend to be very simple and straightforward. Americans tend to tweak the recipes and add more and more stuff which makes them worse in my view. The same happened with pizza. In Italy they are pretty light with a little cheese and a little sauce whereas in the US they often load them up with way too much stuff.
- zwieback 6y ago
  I would agree but then there's always that other American that says "Americans overdo it, try my bread made from only three ingredients." As to pizza: American pizza is a totally different thing, good but not like Italian. However, you can find Italian style pizza like you describe in most US cities now, often made with imported mozzarella and tomatoes. "Clean Label" is actually a massive trend now in food production because people are being told that fewer ingredients are better and if you can't pronounce it it's probably bad for you."

themulticaster 6y ago

Could you explain how craft baking is miles ahead in Oregon? I'm quite curious because I started baking at home recently. Just for fun, I tried comparing perceptions and expectations about what people consider "good bread" in different cultures. Just to be clear what I'm talking about - for me personally, factors that make up good bread would be: * Long proofing times and use of very little yeast in order to allow flavor to develop (as well as reducing FODMAPs) * Use of grain types other than wheat, especially dinkel and rye, but also rare types such as Khorasan or emmer wheat * Ideally (and if appropriate), using sourdough as a leavening agent However, when I had a look at some American artisanal baking content - both recipes and videos - my impression was that it was very focused on (rather boring) wheat bread. One particular recipe I found claimed to be a real rye bread, but it turned out that they meant only about 30% rye content [1], adding an excessive amount of molasses (in my opinion, sugar has no place in a bread) as well as an excessive amount of yeast with less than an hour of proofing time. Chain bakeries and supermarket bread are on the rise in Germany as well, but I guess we all agree that their quality is limited in comparison to craft bakeries. PS: I realize that my question above might come across as a little confrontational, but please let me assure you that it really is well-meant. [1] I should mention that there's a very likely reason why they didn't go for 100% rye: Enzymes naturally occurring in rye cause problems during baking (resulting in soggy bread) if more than about 30% of the flour is rye, unless you are using sourdough. Judging from the recipe complexity, the author didn't want to burden their readers with that topic.

Jun8 6y ago
Can you point to some good resources to get started on artisanal bread baking for a complete beginner?
- sqrt17 6y ago
  If you have a Masterclass subscription, they have a course on making sourdough bread (from the owner of a Parisian bread shop that has been making sourdough bread for some >100 years). Or Joshua Weissman has you covered https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJpIzr2sCDE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJpIzr2sCDE
- themulticaster 6y ago
  Hmm, that's a difficult question for me because I learnt using some books by a blogger called Lutz Geißler [1], but I'm afraid they're written in German and there's no translated version. I haven't yet found any resources written in English that fulfill my personal checklist, but that's probably because I haven't looked hard enough. My recommendations on what to look for: 1. This should be rather obvious, but nevertheless: Avoid bread baking machines. They are trading a lot of quality, customizability and enjoyment for a little convenience. 2. Avoid the temptation of recipes that promise fast results. As a rule of thumb: If the recipe calls for an entire or even multiple packages of yeast and proofing time is less than an hour, the recipe is trading all the flavor in exchange for fast results. Tiny amounts of yeast (seriously, 0.1g of fresh yeast is a common occurence) and proofing time measured in many hours or even days (in the fridge) are a requirement for good bread. But don't worry if the proofing time is that long: You're not actually working during the proofing time - while proofing, the dough is working for you! With a little planning, most recipes can be integrated into the working day. However, the recipes are not everything. The reason I personally like Geißler's approach to baking is that it embodies the rather scientific craft of baking: Essentially, you have a number of parameters (proofing time, dough temperature, flour composition) that all influence the final bread. Geißler explains the consequences of adjusting these parameters, which allows you to actually understand what's happening inside the dough. Ideally, you shouldn't blindly follow the recipe's instructions, but rather observe the actual progress of the dough and accordingly. For example, imagine your recipe calls for 90 minutes of final rise time (after bulk fermentation and shaping) at 20-22 °C. However, your room temperature is significantly higher at the moment. Instead of waiting the full 90 minutes, you check on the dough after 60 minutes. Using the finger test (pressing a finger into the dough and checking how far it rebounds), you determine the dough is not yet ready and give it another ten minutes. It is precisely this controllable, observable and empirical process that I like about bread baking. [1] https://www.ploetzblog.de/ https://www.ploetzblog.de/

CurtHagenlocher 6y ago

My aunt lives in the Rotebühlstraße and one of the highlights of visiting her as a kid in the 1970s was buying pretzels at the bakery two blocks away. Twenty years later, the "bakery" was just a storefront and the actual baking happened at a central location elsewhere in the city.

CurtHagenlocher 6y ago
In any event, I bake my own Laugenbrezel now :).
- zwieback 6y ago
  Good man. Do you boil them in "Lauge"? That's always the tricky part where things can get soggy. And getting something with a high enough pH is sometimes a bit tricky.
  - CurtHagenlocher 6y ago
    I don't boil them in lye; just soak them in it for 30-60 seconds and then bake them in the oven.

spaetzleesser 6y ago

“At this point craft baking, at least here in Oregon, is miles ahead of Germany. Same goes for coffee and beer, times sure have changed.” I think Americans tend to overdo things and make them too fancy. German bakery items often tend to be very simple and straightforward. Americans tend to tweak the recipes and add more and more stuff which makes them worse in my view. The same happened with pizza. In Italy they are pretty light with a little cheese and a little sauce whereas in the US they often load them up with way too much stuff.

zwieback 6y ago
I would agree but then there's always that other American that says "Americans overdo it, try my bread made from only three ingredients." As to pizza: American pizza is a totally different thing, good but not like Italian. However, you can find Italian style pizza like you describe in most US cities now, often made with imported mozzarella and tomatoes. "Clean Label" is actually a massive trend now in food production because people are being told that fewer ingredients are better and if you can't pronounce it it's probably bad for you."