34 ms·

When I joined a mentoring program targeted at recent college grads, I expected to be teaching things like interview prep, resume writing, negotiation skills, co

When I joined a mentoring program targeted at recent college grads, I expected to be teaching things like interview prep, resume writing, negotiation skills, communication skills, and how to deliver results in a workplace. For about half of the mentees, that's roughly true. However, for the other half much of my mentoring ends up being about time management, following through on commitments, and putting in the effort required to get a job done. A surprising number of young people are graduating college without ever having had to work any job. It's particularly difficult for talented coders who breezed through easy CS programs until they land in a work environment where tasks are challenging, expectations are high, and the only way to get things done is to sit down and put in the effort. One of the best skills anyone can learn is how to sit down, focus, and get work done. In my experience, it's increasing challenging to convince young people that this is an acquired skill that they can practice and develop. There's a growing perception that traits like work ethic, focus, and motivation are fixed attributes that one is born with (or without) rather than abilities that are developed over time. It's frustrating to watch some mentees map out meticulous diet and exercise programs to improve their physical strength, but then turn around and tell me that they're only capable of coding for 2 hours per day as a sort of fixed upper limit. Like everything, the ability to work and focus can be developed over time with practice and dedication. It's worth it.

ReactiveJelly 6y ago
I'm not gonna disagree but I want to add a couple things. 1. Kids with ADHD probably can't develop executive function as fast or as far as other kids. I'm pretty sure I have it, it explains the repeated performance reports of "You're good when you apply yourself and useless when you don't." Unfortunately I struggle to _choose_ to apply myself. Willpower doesn't seem to come naturally to me, even after 10 years as a professional programmer. Adderall didn't help - I had to take it in the morning, after breakfast. So I was still late for work, because eating breakfast is not something I'm good at, and I couldn't start my day until I had finished breakfast. Then after work the stimulants wore off and I felt like shit and reverted to my normal do-what-i-want executive function. But it made me feel normal without caffeine. So I quit the Adderall and just cutting caffeinated soda with non-caff every morning, as though I was lowering my dose on a prescription. So far it's working. I still never clean my room, which is status quo for the last 20 years, and work is still pretty easy. The phrase "idiot savant" comes to mind. All I want is for people to stop thinking that I'm doing this on purpose. I don't enjoy constantly feeling like a moron and being behind on simple household chores despite making decent money at a job that is considered (by other people) to be difficult. And that might even be the case for the kids with detailed exercise programs. I don't exercise at all because it's not my interest. I program, because it is my interest. Kinda like how autistic people can't choose their special interests. I pity the kids whose interest is exercise but are trying to force themselves through a CS program into a career track they can't possibly do. Dr. Russell Barkely goes into some detail in a 3-hour talk about ADHD here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSfCdBBqNXY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSfCdBBqNXY If anyone thinks I don't have ADHD because I sat through a 3-hour talk about psychology, maybe they need to watch it, too. "There's a growing perception that traits like work ethic, focus, and motivation are fixed attributes that one is born with (or without) rather than abilities that are developed over time." What if they are, though? What if it's like height, where genetics sets a range and environment picks a point in that range? If I had starved as a child, I would be shorter than I am now. But if I had eaten more, I would not be taller. I'm about the same height as my parents are. There's a hypothesis that the current age of mass distraction (TV, phones, Internet, etc.) doesn't _cause_ ADHD, but it does _aggravate_ it. I don't know if the studies bear it out, but I really want this to be true. What if it's something that's latent in the human genome, and the fact that we can profit off of exploiting it nowadays just brought it to the surface? In early centuries, if I had nothing to do but my work, maybe I would find it easy to just "accept boredom" and do my work anyway. 2. I'm not sure how many employers would have hired me in college. I get the sense that unskilled labor just isn't worth much anymore, and pushing kids to get more education is kicking the can down the road since, as you pointed out, nobody wants to hire an adult with zero work experience whether they're 18, 22, or even 30.
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  ADHD is a difficult topic to discuss on HN. I'll preface this by saying that I'm not doubting your situation, or any other commenter's particular situation. This [section of my] comment is meant to be general: In the context of this mentoring group, we go through phases where almost everyone suspects they have ADHD for various reasons. This is usually triggered by one of two things: Either someone shares an online "Do you have ADHD quiz?" that is sponsored by Takeda or another ADHD medication manufacturer, or a front-page Reddit infographic misrepresents ADHD as something like "Do you some times forget people's names? Maybe you have ADHD!" The reality is that ADHD is very challenging for those that have it, but the pop-culture definition of ADHD has become so vague that people who don't have ADHD are increasingly convinced that common life experiences are symptoms of ADHD. Focusing is hard. Studying is hard. The Grind is hard. It's normal to struggle to focus, but it's even more of a struggle for those with ADHD. However, having to work to focus for extended periods of time, in and of itself, is not an ADHD symptom, it's just life. ADHD is a much more severe impediment. (Again, not referring to the parent comment): Anyone curious should avoid self-diagnosis and seek a trusted professional. Ideally not a family doctor who simply writes prescriptions on request, but someone who can recommend self-guided therapy programs and combination treatment. Adderall isn't all it's made out to be, especially after the initial motivating effects wear off and you're left with the realities of long-term stimulant use, which are nowhere near as exciting as the first few doses. > What if they are, though? What if it's like height, where genetics sets a range and environment picks a point in that range? If I had starved as a child, I would be shorter than I am now. But if I had eaten more, I would not be taller. I'm about the same height as my parents are. Genetics and upbringing may set a baseline for focus and motivation, but those traits are demonstrably not set in stone. Contrary to your example, diet does have a significant influence on height, but it's not the sole determinant. Height isn't a good example, though. Consider something like running capacity. Some people are naturally more athletic than others, but barring severe disorders, everyone can develop more running capacity through training. Someone who gives up and never tries to increase their capacity may not believe this, but it's true. An average person can't simply work their way up to competing with Olympic sprinters blessed with perfect genetics, but they can significantly increase their running capacity from baseline by putting in the work. Likewise, attention is a learned skill. Some have more baseline attention span than others, but it can be increased through training and practice. ADHD modulates this, but it doesn't prevent practice from helping. If anything, people with ADHD need to invest more effort into training their attention spans than those without. > Willpower doesn't seem to come naturally to me, even after 10 years as a professional programmer. Adderall didn't help Adderall and other stimulants don't provide willpower, contrary to popular belief. Only people without tolerance will experience a temporary motivation boost from stimulants. This effect diminishes as tolerance sets in, which is one of several reasons why drugs like Adderall aren't successful for treating disorders like depression. Willpower is another learned skill. Expecting it to come naturally won't work forever. You have to learn to embrace the grind, do the work, and power through the urges to give up and do something easier if you want to get anywhere. > I don't exercise at all because it's not my interest. The reality is that the things we need to do aren't always going to line up with the things we like to do. You're lucky that you have a natural interest in programming, but you can't expect every necessary activity to have a natural interest behind it. Some amount of physical activity is essentially required for a healthy existence. You may not be interested in it, but that doesn't exempt you from requiring it and it certainly doesn't mean you won't benefit from it. Some times the things we have to do in life aren't immediately enjoyable. It's on us to find ways to make them more enjoyable (e.g. find a sport you like, or take up walking), and some times we just have to do the unenjoyable thing for the sake of progress.
ZephyrBlu 6y ago
I think being able to sit down and do work is more about removing distractions than improving focus. Also, I'm curious about these statements: > There's a growing perception that traits like work ethic, focus, and motivation are fixed attributes that one is born with (or without) rather than abilities that are developed over time Really? Who believes this and why? > but then turn around and tell me that they're only capable of coding for 2 hours per day as a sort of fixed upper limit Do they give you a reason? This seems pretty odd.
- narshian 6y ago
  No it’s not. Speaking as someone who specifically has this problem: even eliminating all possible distractions does not do the trick.
  - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
    Which problem exactly? Not being able to sit down and code for more than 2 hours?
    - Jakobeha 6y ago
      It could be that he isn't productive. I have this problem, where if I sit and code for too long I end up just wasting time debugging or writing useless code. Maybe I'm just another uneducated recent college grad, but I really don't see how you can work 7+ hours a day and actually be productive. Doing different kinds of work or taking frequent breaks, possibly. But not just sitting and staring at your computer for 7 hours.
      - titanomachy 6y ago
        It might be sustainable for some people, but not for me... the only time I put in those kind of hours of focused effort is in a FAANG interview loop, and that takes so much out of me that I lie down and stare at the ceiling until bedtime :)
      - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
titanomachy 6y ago
This resonates with me deeply. I can barely get work done most of the time. My "solution" is to leave a company before people get too frustrated with me. Changing companies frequently nets me better pay and more promotions than my harder-working peers, but I haven't felt fulfilled by work in a long time. What do you tell these mentees? What would you tell someone a bit further along in their career who still has the same problems? Please pm me if you are open to a chat. titanomachy.hn [at] pm.me
- mdip 6y ago
  > what would you tell someone a bit further along in their career who still has the same problems? If it's been going on for a while but you are otherwise successful at the work you're doing, the best advice I can give you is to ask a trusted third-party (friend[0], therapist/mentor that you've worked with for a while) and ask them "why, do you think, I have these problems?" Obviously, this has to be someone who won't pull punches, who will tell you the honest truth and you have to be willing to accept it as "just a problem to be solved" rather than allowing it to demoralize you. And they might be wrong, too, but more often than not there's something to whatever it is they spill. If it's a relatively new thing, you might be going through a little burnout. I've been there a few times. The first time it happened to me, I almost "fell out of it" by accident. My day job was in a bit of a lull at the time and I just decided one day that I'd had it with a lacking feature in Visual Studio and decided to sit down and figure out how to write an add-on shortly after waking up on Saturday. I ended up completing a really basic version that day -- enough that I knew I could do the rest of it, which I continued to work on for about a month until I released it. I did this all during a handful of free evening hours during the week, but I checked my download counts regularly and was giddy every time they went up. I can't tell you when the burn-out ended -- probably that following Tuesday -- but any time I start to feel that way, again, I look at what I'm working on that I'm really excited about and I often find that there's nothing there. So I look for something new, usually not day-job related, with the goal of it being "far enough outside of my wheelhouse as to require a decent amount of new learning" and "not terribly difficult to do once that learning is over" because if I can't quickly get to a working "something" on a project like this before I close the IDE, I'm unlikely to revisit it. Ideally, that new learning leads to some new things to work on at the day job, too. [0] Friends are often not the best unless you have a friend who is not afraid to insult you/the "hard truths". I've had a very close friend for most of my adult life that has been willing to say "You're being stupid/evil/what-have-you" when it was necessary.
howtowin 6y ago
Where can I join / look into such an initiative? I’d love to give back to those following us, just as many before us did.

ReactiveJelly 6y ago

I'm not gonna disagree but I want to add a couple things. 1. Kids with ADHD probably can't develop executive function as fast or as far as other kids. I'm pretty sure I have it, it explains the repeated performance reports of "You're good when you apply yourself and useless when you don't." Unfortunately I struggle to _choose_ to apply myself. Willpower doesn't seem to come naturally to me, even after 10 years as a professional programmer. Adderall didn't help - I had to take it in the morning, after breakfast. So I was still late for work, because eating breakfast is not something I'm good at, and I couldn't start my day until I had finished breakfast. Then after work the stimulants wore off and I felt like shit and reverted to my normal do-what-i-want executive function. But it made me feel normal without caffeine. So I quit the Adderall and just cutting caffeinated soda with non-caff every morning, as though I was lowering my dose on a prescription. So far it's working. I still never clean my room, which is status quo for the last 20 years, and work is still pretty easy. The phrase "idiot savant" comes to mind. All I want is for people to stop thinking that I'm doing this on purpose. I don't enjoy constantly feeling like a moron and being behind on simple household chores despite making decent money at a job that is considered (by other people) to be difficult. And that might even be the case for the kids with detailed exercise programs. I don't exercise at all because it's not my interest. I program, because it is my interest. Kinda like how autistic people can't choose their special interests. I pity the kids whose interest is exercise but are trying to force themselves through a CS program into a career track they can't possibly do. Dr. Russell Barkely goes into some detail in a 3-hour talk about ADHD here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSfCdBBqNXY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSfCdBBqNXY If anyone thinks I don't have ADHD because I sat through a 3-hour talk about psychology, maybe they need to watch it, too. "There's a growing perception that traits like work ethic, focus, and motivation are fixed attributes that one is born with (or without) rather than abilities that are developed over time." What if they are, though? What if it's like height, where genetics sets a range and environment picks a point in that range? If I had starved as a child, I would be shorter than I am now. But if I had eaten more, I would not be taller. I'm about the same height as my parents are. There's a hypothesis that the current age of mass distraction (TV, phones, Internet, etc.) doesn't _cause_ ADHD, but it does _aggravate_ it. I don't know if the studies bear it out, but I really want this to be true. What if it's something that's latent in the human genome, and the fact that we can profit off of exploiting it nowadays just brought it to the surface? In early centuries, if I had nothing to do but my work, maybe I would find it easy to just "accept boredom" and do my work anyway. 2. I'm not sure how many employers would have hired me in college. I get the sense that unskilled labor just isn't worth much anymore, and pushing kids to get more education is kicking the can down the road since, as you pointed out, nobody wants to hire an adult with zero work experience whether they're 18, 22, or even 30.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago
ADHD is a difficult topic to discuss on HN. I'll preface this by saying that I'm not doubting your situation, or any other commenter's particular situation. This [section of my] comment is meant to be general: In the context of this mentoring group, we go through phases where almost everyone suspects they have ADHD for various reasons. This is usually triggered by one of two things: Either someone shares an online "Do you have ADHD quiz?" that is sponsored by Takeda or another ADHD medication manufacturer, or a front-page Reddit infographic misrepresents ADHD as something like "Do you some times forget people's names? Maybe you have ADHD!" The reality is that ADHD is very challenging for those that have it, but the pop-culture definition of ADHD has become so vague that people who don't have ADHD are increasingly convinced that common life experiences are symptoms of ADHD. Focusing is hard. Studying is hard. The Grind is hard. It's normal to struggle to focus, but it's even more of a struggle for those with ADHD. However, having to work to focus for extended periods of time, in and of itself, is not an ADHD symptom, it's just life. ADHD is a much more severe impediment. (Again, not referring to the parent comment): Anyone curious should avoid self-diagnosis and seek a trusted professional. Ideally not a family doctor who simply writes prescriptions on request, but someone who can recommend self-guided therapy programs and combination treatment. Adderall isn't all it's made out to be, especially after the initial motivating effects wear off and you're left with the realities of long-term stimulant use, which are nowhere near as exciting as the first few doses. > What if they are, though? What if it's like height, where genetics sets a range and environment picks a point in that range? If I had starved as a child, I would be shorter than I am now. But if I had eaten more, I would not be taller. I'm about the same height as my parents are. Genetics and upbringing may set a baseline for focus and motivation, but those traits are demonstrably not set in stone. Contrary to your example, diet does have a significant influence on height, but it's not the sole determinant. Height isn't a good example, though. Consider something like running capacity. Some people are naturally more athletic than others, but barring severe disorders, everyone can develop more running capacity through training. Someone who gives up and never tries to increase their capacity may not believe this, but it's true. An average person can't simply work their way up to competing with Olympic sprinters blessed with perfect genetics, but they can significantly increase their running capacity from baseline by putting in the work. Likewise, attention is a learned skill. Some have more baseline attention span than others, but it can be increased through training and practice. ADHD modulates this, but it doesn't prevent practice from helping. If anything, people with ADHD need to invest more effort into training their attention spans than those without. > Willpower doesn't seem to come naturally to me, even after 10 years as a professional programmer. Adderall didn't help Adderall and other stimulants don't provide willpower, contrary to popular belief. Only people without tolerance will experience a temporary motivation boost from stimulants. This effect diminishes as tolerance sets in, which is one of several reasons why drugs like Adderall aren't successful for treating disorders like depression. Willpower is another learned skill. Expecting it to come naturally won't work forever. You have to learn to embrace the grind, do the work, and power through the urges to give up and do something easier if you want to get anywhere. > I don't exercise at all because it's not my interest. The reality is that the things we need to do aren't always going to line up with the things we like to do. You're lucky that you have a natural interest in programming, but you can't expect every necessary activity to have a natural interest behind it. Some amount of physical activity is essentially required for a healthy existence. You may not be interested in it, but that doesn't exempt you from requiring it and it certainly doesn't mean you won't benefit from it. Some times the things we have to do in life aren't immediately enjoyable. It's on us to find ways to make them more enjoyable (e.g. find a sport you like, or take up walking), and some times we just have to do the unenjoyable thing for the sake of progress.

ZephyrBlu 6y ago

I think being able to sit down and do work is more about removing distractions than improving focus. Also, I'm curious about these statements: > There's a growing perception that traits like work ethic, focus, and motivation are fixed attributes that one is born with (or without) rather than abilities that are developed over time Really? Who believes this and why? > but then turn around and tell me that they're only capable of coding for 2 hours per day as a sort of fixed upper limit Do they give you a reason? This seems pretty odd.

narshian 6y ago
No it’s not. Speaking as someone who specifically has this problem: even eliminating all possible distractions does not do the trick.
- ZephyrBlu 6y ago
  Which problem exactly? Not being able to sit down and code for more than 2 hours?
  - Jakobeha 6y ago
    It could be that he isn't productive. I have this problem, where if I sit and code for too long I end up just wasting time debugging or writing useless code. Maybe I'm just another uneducated recent college grad, but I really don't see how you can work 7+ hours a day and actually be productive. Doing different kinds of work or taking frequent breaks, possibly. But not just sitting and staring at your computer for 7 hours.
    - titanomachy 6y ago
      It might be sustainable for some people, but not for me... the only time I put in those kind of hours of focused effort is in a FAANG interview loop, and that takes so much out of me that I lie down and stare at the ceiling until bedtime :)
    - ZephyrBlu 6y ago

titanomachy 6y ago

This resonates with me deeply. I can barely get work done most of the time. My "solution" is to leave a company before people get too frustrated with me. Changing companies frequently nets me better pay and more promotions than my harder-working peers, but I haven't felt fulfilled by work in a long time. What do you tell these mentees? What would you tell someone a bit further along in their career who still has the same problems? Please pm me if you are open to a chat. titanomachy.hn [at] pm.me

mdip 6y ago
> what would you tell someone a bit further along in their career who still has the same problems? If it's been going on for a while but you are otherwise successful at the work you're doing, the best advice I can give you is to ask a trusted third-party (friend[0], therapist/mentor that you've worked with for a while) and ask them "why, do you think, I have these problems?" Obviously, this has to be someone who won't pull punches, who will tell you the honest truth and you have to be willing to accept it as "just a problem to be solved" rather than allowing it to demoralize you. And they might be wrong, too, but more often than not there's something to whatever it is they spill. If it's a relatively new thing, you might be going through a little burnout. I've been there a few times. The first time it happened to me, I almost "fell out of it" by accident. My day job was in a bit of a lull at the time and I just decided one day that I'd had it with a lacking feature in Visual Studio and decided to sit down and figure out how to write an add-on shortly after waking up on Saturday. I ended up completing a really basic version that day -- enough that I knew I could do the rest of it, which I continued to work on for about a month until I released it. I did this all during a handful of free evening hours during the week, but I checked my download counts regularly and was giddy every time they went up. I can't tell you when the burn-out ended -- probably that following Tuesday -- but any time I start to feel that way, again, I look at what I'm working on that I'm really excited about and I often find that there's nothing there. So I look for something new, usually not day-job related, with the goal of it being "far enough outside of my wheelhouse as to require a decent amount of new learning" and "not terribly difficult to do once that learning is over" because if I can't quickly get to a working "something" on a project like this before I close the IDE, I'm unlikely to revisit it. Ideally, that new learning leads to some new things to work on at the day job, too. [0] Friends are often not the best unless you have a friend who is not afraid to insult you/the "hard truths". I've had a very close friend for most of my adult life that has been willing to say "You're being stupid/evil/what-have-you" when it was necessary.

howtowin 6y ago

Where can I join / look into such an initiative? I’d love to give back to those following us, just as many before us did.