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Besides cleaning, another example is strict enforcement of outdoor mask laws. In Poland, the health minister has been criticized by scientists (often the same o

Besides cleaning, another example is strict enforcement of outdoor mask laws. In Poland, the health minister has been criticized by scientists (often the same ones concerned about COVID) for requiring masks to be worn outdoors even in remote places where there are no other people around. Ultimately he admitted that, indeed, there was little scientific basis for the policy like had been claimed previously. He just thought it was more likely that people would have a mask on when entering shops, if they simply had to wear one at all times anyway, but the public was never told that. It turns out that if you give a public official purview over something and don’t make him or her very answerable to other officials, that public official will get comfortable being heavy-handed and failing to adequately explain things to the citizenry.

UncleOxidant 6y ago
I'll wear a mask outside if I'm in a crowded situation like the farmer's market I go to weekly (masks are required there anyway). But if I'm just out walking around where I'm easily 20 feet from the nearest person I don't bother. Although now that it's allergy season I'm finding maskwearing to be beneficial so now I wear it most of the time outside - to avoid pollen.
dredmorbius 6y ago
Nuance in mass communications, especially in high-consequence circumstances, is itself a major risk factor. Drawing a very bright, very wide, strongly-enforced safety line well away from any potential hazard has value. Public health in pandemics is all about consistently breaking transmission chains. And even countries with initial or eventual success can remain at risk of resumed high infection rates, as is evident currently in India (doubling daily infections over a week: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/), Turkey, Brazil, Poland, Germany, and in parts of the US (notably Michigan, at this writing).
- ghaff 6y ago
  Of course, it doesn't mean people will follow rules they don't feel make sense. Where I live in Massachusetts masks are required in all public spaces whether distanced or not. But my anecdotal observation in the state forests, etc. around where I live is that most people don't when they're well-distanced from everyone. And they may pull up a neck gaiter for a few seconds if they're passing someone on a trail (especially if that other person is wearing a mask).
  - dredmorbius 6y ago
    If I were managing public health in a region ... I'd probably be reasonably comfortable with that behaviour. But in a world in which modest and reasonable requests to wear masks result in angry outbursts to murderous rage ... I could also be convinced to draw a firmer line. Again: the matter is nuanced.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      There's no real enforcement anyway though. We're talking about large outside recreational areas in exurban/rural areas. And even passing on trails, people are almost always at least 6 feet away. Also, as I say, people are mostly good about pulling something up if approaching a masked group, even if it's mostly theater. My understanding is that closer to the city, more people are wearing masks outdoors but the walking paths are more crowded as well.
    - bitcurious 6y ago
      > But in a world in which modest and reasonable requests to wear masks result in angry outbursts to murderous rage ... On the other hand, that rage (but not murderous) is justified if the request isn’t based in any reasonable understanding of disease spread and is just an expression of power over that individual. Such as outside in the woods.
    - timeslip1523 6y ago
      The anger derives from the unreasonable requests.
- orangecat 6y ago
  Drawing a very bright, very wide, strongly-enforced safety line well away from any potential hazard has value. It also has harms: it decreases respect for rules that actually do make sense, and it can encourage people to substitute more dangerous activities. If Alice values taking a walk outside without a mask at 50, walking with a mask at 30, and going to a shopping mall (with a mask) at 40, strictly enforcing outdoor mask mandates is going to make her both less happy and more at risk.
  - dredmorbius 6y ago
    During a worldwide rapidly-evolving public health emergency of (one desperately hopes) limited duration, that arguments loses sufficient legs to be rendered a snake in the grass.
elif 6y ago
When my mayor decided to say that masking outdoors was not necessary if you kept distance, literally that weekend I, immune-compromised, became literally stranded in a public park because a woman decided to have a yoga session at the top of a staircase that happened to be a choke point in pedestrian traffic. People are quick to make decisions that they consider self-protective, rather than decisions that are protective of the most vulnerable. The goal of public health should be to affect global health good with edge cases considered, understanding the narcissistic way their messaging will be received.

UncleOxidant 6y ago

I'll wear a mask outside if I'm in a crowded situation like the farmer's market I go to weekly (masks are required there anyway). But if I'm just out walking around where I'm easily 20 feet from the nearest person I don't bother. Although now that it's allergy season I'm finding maskwearing to be beneficial so now I wear it most of the time outside - to avoid pollen.

dredmorbius 6y ago

Nuance in mass communications, especially in high-consequence circumstances, is itself a major risk factor. Drawing a very bright, very wide, strongly-enforced safety line well away from any potential hazard has value. Public health in pandemics is all about consistently breaking transmission chains. And even countries with initial or eventual success can remain at risk of resumed high infection rates, as is evident currently in India (doubling daily infections over a week: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/), Turkey, Brazil, Poland, Germany, and in parts of the US (notably Michigan, at this writing).

ghaff 6y ago
Of course, it doesn't mean people will follow rules they don't feel make sense. Where I live in Massachusetts masks are required in all public spaces whether distanced or not. But my anecdotal observation in the state forests, etc. around where I live is that most people don't when they're well-distanced from everyone. And they may pull up a neck gaiter for a few seconds if they're passing someone on a trail (especially if that other person is wearing a mask).
- dredmorbius 6y ago
  If I were managing public health in a region ... I'd probably be reasonably comfortable with that behaviour. But in a world in which modest and reasonable requests to wear masks result in angry outbursts to murderous rage ... I could also be convinced to draw a firmer line. Again: the matter is nuanced.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    There's no real enforcement anyway though. We're talking about large outside recreational areas in exurban/rural areas. And even passing on trails, people are almost always at least 6 feet away. Also, as I say, people are mostly good about pulling something up if approaching a masked group, even if it's mostly theater. My understanding is that closer to the city, more people are wearing masks outdoors but the walking paths are more crowded as well.
  - bitcurious 6y ago
    > But in a world in which modest and reasonable requests to wear masks result in angry outbursts to murderous rage ... On the other hand, that rage (but not murderous) is justified if the request isn’t based in any reasonable understanding of disease spread and is just an expression of power over that individual. Such as outside in the woods.
  - timeslip1523 6y ago
    The anger derives from the unreasonable requests.
orangecat 6y ago
Drawing a very bright, very wide, strongly-enforced safety line well away from any potential hazard has value. It also has harms: it decreases respect for rules that actually do make sense, and it can encourage people to substitute more dangerous activities. If Alice values taking a walk outside without a mask at 50, walking with a mask at 30, and going to a shopping mall (with a mask) at 40, strictly enforcing outdoor mask mandates is going to make her both less happy and more at risk.
- dredmorbius 6y ago
  During a worldwide rapidly-evolving public health emergency of (one desperately hopes) limited duration, that arguments loses sufficient legs to be rendered a snake in the grass.

elif 6y ago

When my mayor decided to say that masking outdoors was not necessary if you kept distance, literally that weekend I, immune-compromised, became literally stranded in a public park because a woman decided to have a yoga session at the top of a staircase that happened to be a choke point in pedestrian traffic. People are quick to make decisions that they consider self-protective, rather than decisions that are protective of the most vulnerable. The goal of public health should be to affect global health good with edge cases considered, understanding the narcissistic way their messaging will be received.