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"The admission is long overdue, scientists say." This has been a theme of the pandemic and I hope we have all learned the lesson well. Government agencies and

"The admission is long overdue, scientists say." This has been a theme of the pandemic and I hope we have all learned the lesson well. Government agencies and officials will usually be the last ones to update their messaging. Maybe it's an attempt at self-preservation by being overly-cautious, or maybe it's done to compel compliance and basically keep people scared. But the message is clear: the government is not the place to get the most accurate and up-to-date facts in the middle of a crisis. Unfortunately, the media hasn't done a great job either, which really leaves us with a problem.

ghaff 6y ago
In the case of cleaning specifically though, I'd probably argue that, for a long time, the expert opinion was probably something along the lines of "Although there is some theoretical evidence that the virus can spread by contact, we don't believe it's much of a factor in practice." And, given that, I can see leaving a lot of cleaning practices in place even if they're not believed to help much. The reality I observe is that people have loosened up a lot about obsessively sanitizing and avoiding touching things as much as possible.
- UncleOxidant 6y ago
  This time last year I was washing every item that came from the grocery store, and putting my mail in the oven at 170F for about 10 minutes. Stopped doing all that back in about June 2020.
dredmorbius 6y ago
Institutions and insititutional practices are powerful and essential to functioning in a modern and complex society. Even marginal or ineffective practices, and quite probably overtly harmful ones, can have some value and significance. That said, yes, a key weakness of insitutionalised practices is that they often far outlive their actual usefulness, and are difficult to change. In part because of reasons discussed elsewhere in this thread (see my earlier longer comment), but also out of sheer inertia and the difficulty in coming to a collective agreement on a new standard course of action. Additive rather than subtractive problem solving bias being a recently discussed case in point as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26727878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26727878
oh_sigh 6y ago
I feel so stuck because of this. My government previously said anyone outside has to wear a mask. Even if you're standing in a middle of a field, by yourself, with no one within a mile of you - you need to wear a mask. This is clearly theater, but society is so polarized that if I don't see value in this kind of theater, then I must be some insane anti-masker who thinks COVID is a government hoax. So there I go, wearing my mask out, hating every minute of it, but hating even more what people might think if I don't. The government has clearly intentionally lied about things (e.g. government telling us early on that masks don't work, maybe to prevent masks from getting sold out for first responders), but I'm not sure what anyone can do about this situation.
- llampx 6y ago
  Meanwhile our government in Germany first told us that masks are useless (paraphrased), then later reversed their stance, and now require FFP2 masks to enter any shop, bus, train and so on. Meanwhile multiple government officials and ministers have been linked to Mask-scandals so they are likely profiting from each FFP2 mask that is sold.
  - elric 6y ago
    The Belgian government said the same, but I think the message isn't quite as black & white, and should be seen through two pairs of eyes: 1. There's the individual, in which case wearing a mask is not super useful. Wearing a mask isn't very effective at preventing the wearer from getting sick, especially if the wearer is a typical human being who is constantly picking at their face and generally doesn't wear the mask properly. This was oft repeated near the start of the pandemic, mostly by doctors and virologists who deal with infection on the individual level. 2. There's the collective, where reducing the spread even a little bit, can have a definite impact on many people in the long run. Masks mandates are definitely useful there, at least in crowded places. Even if they're not being worn properly by a large fraction of the population, spread will still slow. This may not be useful for any given individual, but it can help "flatten the curve" of hospitalizations, which is sort of what the management of the pandemic is all about. This wasn't really elaborated on in the media, but it's the message that biostatisticians and epidemiologists have been bringing all along. I think there's been some serious communication issues throughout this whole pandemic. Not just in our respective countries, but pretty much globally. Covering your nose and mouth is super low effort and super low risk for almost everyone. And while staying at home and away from people is even more effective, going about your business with a mask is much easier for many people. I don't know why more effort hasn't gone into trying to convince people of that. Instead we're chasing pipe dreams of cheap respirators and tracking apps. Techno-fetishism at its worst.
pibechorro 6y ago
Mainstream media is the gov.

ghaff 6y ago

In the case of cleaning specifically though, I'd probably argue that, for a long time, the expert opinion was probably something along the lines of "Although there is some theoretical evidence that the virus can spread by contact, we don't believe it's much of a factor in practice." And, given that, I can see leaving a lot of cleaning practices in place even if they're not believed to help much. The reality I observe is that people have loosened up a lot about obsessively sanitizing and avoiding touching things as much as possible.

UncleOxidant 6y ago
This time last year I was washing every item that came from the grocery store, and putting my mail in the oven at 170F for about 10 minutes. Stopped doing all that back in about June 2020.

dredmorbius 6y ago

Institutions and insititutional practices are powerful and essential to functioning in a modern and complex society. Even marginal or ineffective practices, and quite probably overtly harmful ones, can have some value and significance. That said, yes, a key weakness of insitutionalised practices is that they often far outlive their actual usefulness, and are difficult to change. In part because of reasons discussed elsewhere in this thread (see my earlier longer comment), but also out of sheer inertia and the difficulty in coming to a collective agreement on a new standard course of action. Additive rather than subtractive problem solving bias being a recently discussed case in point as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26727878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26727878

oh_sigh 6y ago

I feel so stuck because of this. My government previously said anyone outside has to wear a mask. Even if you're standing in a middle of a field, by yourself, with no one within a mile of you - you need to wear a mask. This is clearly theater, but society is so polarized that if I don't see value in this kind of theater, then I must be some insane anti-masker who thinks COVID is a government hoax. So there I go, wearing my mask out, hating every minute of it, but hating even more what people might think if I don't. The government has clearly intentionally lied about things (e.g. government telling us early on that masks don't work, maybe to prevent masks from getting sold out for first responders), but I'm not sure what anyone can do about this situation.

llampx 6y ago
Meanwhile our government in Germany first told us that masks are useless (paraphrased), then later reversed their stance, and now require FFP2 masks to enter any shop, bus, train and so on. Meanwhile multiple government officials and ministers have been linked to Mask-scandals so they are likely profiting from each FFP2 mask that is sold.
- elric 6y ago
  The Belgian government said the same, but I think the message isn't quite as black & white, and should be seen through two pairs of eyes: 1. There's the individual, in which case wearing a mask is not super useful. Wearing a mask isn't very effective at preventing the wearer from getting sick, especially if the wearer is a typical human being who is constantly picking at their face and generally doesn't wear the mask properly. This was oft repeated near the start of the pandemic, mostly by doctors and virologists who deal with infection on the individual level. 2. There's the collective, where reducing the spread even a little bit, can have a definite impact on many people in the long run. Masks mandates are definitely useful there, at least in crowded places. Even if they're not being worn properly by a large fraction of the population, spread will still slow. This may not be useful for any given individual, but it can help "flatten the curve" of hospitalizations, which is sort of what the management of the pandemic is all about. This wasn't really elaborated on in the media, but it's the message that biostatisticians and epidemiologists have been bringing all along. I think there's been some serious communication issues throughout this whole pandemic. Not just in our respective countries, but pretty much globally. Covering your nose and mouth is super low effort and super low risk for almost everyone. And while staying at home and away from people is even more effective, going about your business with a mask is much easier for many people. I don't know why more effort hasn't gone into trying to convince people of that. Instead we're chasing pipe dreams of cheap respirators and tracking apps. Techno-fetishism at its worst.

pibechorro 6y ago

Mainstream media is the gov.