4 ms·

Sorry to hear that you had $80k worth of debt, that's certainly a lot. It's also several standard deviations above the median. The median student loan debt in t

by bhupy 6y ago

Sorry to hear that you had $80k worth of debt, that's certainly a lot. It's also several standard deviations above the median. The median student loan debt in the US is about $17,000 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/02/03/student-loan-debt-statistics/?sh=d63d9ee281fe https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/02/03/student...). In Alabama, you can actually use the net price calculator here: https://financialaid.ua.edu/net-price-calculator/ https://financialaid.ua.edu/net-price-calculator/ For a family of 2 that earns minimum wage tuition goes as low as $8,000/year in total, and that's excluding any Federal grants or loans. Generally speaking, sticker price != net price for the vast majority of students: https://www.manhattan-institute.org/new-approach-curbing-college-tuition-inflation https://www.manhattan-institute.org/new-approach-curbing-col... From the link: "The average annual net cost at a four-year public college has grown by almost 81% beyond inflation over the past decade, to $3,870." Again, I'm sorry to hear about your personal experience; it's totally valid. It's, however, not representative of the median or the majority of the lower class.

joshuamorton 6y ago
> For a family of 2 that earns minimum wage tuition goes as low as $8,000/year in total, and that's excluding any Federal grants or loans. To rephrase: "For a family of 2 that earns minimum wage, tuition remains more than 50% of your gross income."
- bhupy 6y ago
  That's ignoring Federal grants. Once you factor in all external grants, the median per-year tuition is half of that, if you read the last link. And that's the median. The bottom quintile is ostensibly much less.
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    Tuition also does not reflect the full cost of attendance (books, materials can be hundreds or even thousands a semester, depending on your major, and housing can in some cases exceed tuition[0]). The same source notes that the net TFRB (which I'm reading as cost of attendance, as it isn't defined anywhere) is $15,500, with $6,500 in grants. Or a CoA of ~$9,000 annually. This remains above the 50% number I mentioned. And it's worth noting that these grants aren't solely federal grants. Universities (and states) offer all kinds of non-need-based aid. The one I'm familiar with, since I'm from Georgia, is the Hope scholarship. This grant offers 6-10K per year, which is amazing, unless you lose it part way through your education (by failing to maintain what can be a fairly difficult GPA requirement). I nearly lost it my first year. That would have been an additional cost of ~20K over the remainder of my education. That was stressful for me, an upper middle class person with financially responsible parents who had decent savings for my education. That kind of stress would be compounded for someone who started in more dire financial straits, and who was more heavily relying on the grant money. [0]: And while some people can live at home, this is not available to many people, and can negatively impact your ability to network and build a social support network with peers at university, which is extremely valuable.
    - bhupy 6y ago
      I'm from Georgia as well (I went to Georgia Tech). In addition to HOPE, you also have Zell-Miller which is even more generous (covers housing, food, and books). The fact that Georgia's aid is tied to merit is a system that I personally agree with, but understand why someone might not. It's something that the voters of each State should litigate.
      - joshuamorton 6y ago
        FWIW when I said 6-10K a year, I was including Zell on the upper end of that, and it does a great job of helping the people it helps, and as far as I know is one of the superior grant programs in the US (which is to say, you'll have less support in most other states). > (I went to Georgia Tech) Then you're probably familiar with at least part of the controversy: maintaining the Zell/HOPE GPA requirement at GT is difficult. So for an above average, but not exceptional student, or a student who doesn't have a strong support network, the rational decision can be to go to a worse school because maintaining the GPA requirement will be easier. That means UGA (or State or KSU) over Tech for many people. I think that there are a variety of reasons that's a misalignment of incentives (and thankfully there seems to be some improvements happening in this area).
        bhupy 6y ago
        > So for an above average, but not exceptional student, or a student who doesn't have a strong support network, the rational decision can be to go to a worse school because maintaining the GPA requirement will be easier. Yes, and I don't see a problem with that. The best schools are for the best students. This response shouldn't surprise you, coming from an alumna of Georgia Tech, which is an extremely rigorous and prestigious school. I understand that values differ, but at some point, personal responsibility and merit need to count for something. If the net result of this is that an unexceptional poor student ends up going to KSU or Georgia State instead of Georgia Tech, I'm okay with that. KSU and Georgia State are perfectly fine schools, and its graduates go on to lead perfectly fine lives outside of poverty. I recommend playing with this tool which allows you to see, for every single school and major, what the earnings vs debt is: https://www.wsj.com/articles/which-college-graduates-make-the-most-11574267424 https://www.wsj.com/articles/which-college-graduates-make-th... Not everyone is entitled to go to Georgia Tech (or MIT or Harvard) for free; and there are plenty of middle-of-the-lane universities that provide opportunities for unexceptional students, at little to no cost.

by bhupy 6y ago

joshuamorton 6y ago

> For a family of 2 that earns minimum wage tuition goes as low as $8,000/year in total, and that's excluding any Federal grants or loans. To rephrase: "For a family of 2 that earns minimum wage, tuition remains more than 50% of your gross income."

bhupy 6y ago
That's ignoring Federal grants. Once you factor in all external grants, the median per-year tuition is half of that, if you read the last link. And that's the median. The bottom quintile is ostensibly much less.
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  Tuition also does not reflect the full cost of attendance (books, materials can be hundreds or even thousands a semester, depending on your major, and housing can in some cases exceed tuition[0]). The same source notes that the net TFRB (which I'm reading as cost of attendance, as it isn't defined anywhere) is $15,500, with $6,500 in grants. Or a CoA of ~$9,000 annually. This remains above the 50% number I mentioned. And it's worth noting that these grants aren't solely federal grants. Universities (and states) offer all kinds of non-need-based aid. The one I'm familiar with, since I'm from Georgia, is the Hope scholarship. This grant offers 6-10K per year, which is amazing, unless you lose it part way through your education (by failing to maintain what can be a fairly difficult GPA requirement). I nearly lost it my first year. That would have been an additional cost of ~20K over the remainder of my education. That was stressful for me, an upper middle class person with financially responsible parents who had decent savings for my education. That kind of stress would be compounded for someone who started in more dire financial straits, and who was more heavily relying on the grant money. [0]: And while some people can live at home, this is not available to many people, and can negatively impact your ability to network and build a social support network with peers at university, which is extremely valuable.
  - bhupy 6y ago
    I'm from Georgia as well (I went to Georgia Tech). In addition to HOPE, you also have Zell-Miller which is even more generous (covers housing, food, and books). The fact that Georgia's aid is tied to merit is a system that I personally agree with, but understand why someone might not. It's something that the voters of each State should litigate.
    - joshuamorton 6y ago
      FWIW when I said 6-10K a year, I was including Zell on the upper end of that, and it does a great job of helping the people it helps, and as far as I know is one of the superior grant programs in the US (which is to say, you'll have less support in most other states). > (I went to Georgia Tech) Then you're probably familiar with at least part of the controversy: maintaining the Zell/HOPE GPA requirement at GT is difficult. So for an above average, but not exceptional student, or a student who doesn't have a strong support network, the rational decision can be to go to a worse school because maintaining the GPA requirement will be easier. That means UGA (or State or KSU) over Tech for many people. I think that there are a variety of reasons that's a misalignment of incentives (and thankfully there seems to be some improvements happening in this area).
      - bhupy 6y ago
        > So for an above average, but not exceptional student, or a student who doesn't have a strong support network, the rational decision can be to go to a worse school because maintaining the GPA requirement will be easier. Yes, and I don't see a problem with that. The best schools are for the best students. This response shouldn't surprise you, coming from an alumna of Georgia Tech, which is an extremely rigorous and prestigious school. I understand that values differ, but at some point, personal responsibility and merit need to count for something. If the net result of this is that an unexceptional poor student ends up going to KSU or Georgia State instead of Georgia Tech, I'm okay with that. KSU and Georgia State are perfectly fine schools, and its graduates go on to lead perfectly fine lives outside of poverty. I recommend playing with this tool which allows you to see, for every single school and major, what the earnings vs debt is: https://www.wsj.com/articles/which-college-graduates-make-the-most-11574267424 https://www.wsj.com/articles/which-college-graduates-make-th... Not everyone is entitled to go to Georgia Tech (or MIT or Harvard) for free; and there are plenty of middle-of-the-lane universities that provide opportunities for unexceptional students, at little to no cost.