4 ms·

The problem with the “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” thinking is that it ignores being born into the problem. This is both right and wrong. Asian immigra

The problem with the “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” thinking is that it ignores being born into the problem. This is both right and wrong. Asian immigrants are notorious for arriving on foreign shores, penniless, then winding up owning businesses and sending their kids to top tier schools. The problem isn't being born into not having money and things. The problem is being born into an environment that sets children up for future failure. The good news, is that such cultural practices aren't attached to race or ethnicity and so can be learned and adopted. There are historical precedents for this. The bad news, is that other cultural practices can do the opposite, and insulate groups of people against things like valuing education and a work ethic.

_huayra_ 6y ago
Most people who are immigrants have almost by definition a better-than-average work ethic. You can see this if you know a bunch of people from country X when you live in country Y (where Y is usually a country "better off" than X), and then you go visit country X. You'll see that the "expats from X" you see while living in Y may be of a higher caliber (e.g. entrepreneurial, in your example), the people who did not expatriate do not often contain the same values. As someone who lived in the US for a long time and now lives in Europe, I can tell you that all of the Americans I've met over here (who are not vacationing) are incredibly driven and entrepreneurial. They do not at all reflect the average American back in the US (e.g. I don't know a single Trump supporter over here; the Democrats Abroad caucus typically goes far more liberal than any state, supporting Bernie Sanders in 2016 by a very wide margin).
- luckylion 6y ago
  Not sure how true that generalization is. If you look at Germany, you'll see high unemployment rates (and less education) among immigrants from Turkey and Arabian countries, while you'll see significantly more success on all fronts for immigrants from e.g. Vietnam.
  - _huayra_ 6y ago
    I think both can be true: people who emigrate from a country to pursue better career / life opportunities typically are more industrious in my experience than are those who do not (on average; there are plenty of people who don't emigrate who are just as industrious; it's just that those who are NOT industrious do not emigrate at all), while at the same time some immigrants will differ in industriousness based on their country of origin.
  - curryst 6y ago
    > If you look at Germany, you'll see high unemployment rates (and less education) among immigrants from Turkey and Arabian countries, while you'll see significantly more success on all fronts for immigrants from e.g. Vietnam. Are refugees counted as immigrants? A lot of the refugees from Syria come through Turkey, so I'm curious if that's throwing off the numbers. Refugees and immigrants aren't really comparable. The most stark difference is that refugees can (and likely will) be sent back when their country stabilizes enough. If you're a refugee, there's little point in building up a new life when you know it will all come to an end.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      > Are refugees counted as immigrants? A lot of the refugees from Syria come through Turkey, so I'm curious if that's throwing off the numbers. No, it's about immigrants from Turkey (who came mostly in the 60ies as regular working migrants to both feed Germany's hunger for workers and buy Turkey's entry into NATO). The Vietnamese on the other hand were often refugees, much poorer and with much less support. There aren't any relevant numbers about the migrant crisis '15 yet, it's too recent to get meaningful statistics. > The most stark difference is that refugees can (and likely will) be sent back when their country stabilizes enough. True, but that very rarely happens in Germany. It's considered cruel to deport someone who has lived in Germany for a few years. Deportations of asylum seekers usually only happen for so-called "safe countries", e.g. Balkan states, when the request for asylum is denied.
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  > I can tell you that all of the Americans I've met over here (who are not vacationing) are incredibly driven and entrepreneurial. They do not at all reflect the average American back in the US (e.g. I don't know a single Trump supporter over here; This is a strange observation to me because Trump did very well with the small business owner demographics. https://news.gallup.com/poll/284396/small-business-owners-highly-engaged-2020-election.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/284396/small-business-owners-hi...
  - _huayra_ 6y ago
    I would guess that the interests of SMB owners for US residents and expats differ. SMB owners in the US probably think more short-term and think that policies from Trump will help them (which they may, but will ultimately continue the steady decline of the US workforce, e.g. lack of a social safety net, upward mobility, lack of education, a broken patchwork of poorly-maintained car-centric infrastructure). SMB owners who are US citizens abroad, however, are driven by primarily one thing, regardless of party affiliation: who will be most likely to support a rewrite of the punitive tax laws that the US places on its expatriate citizens (which no country other than Eritrea does).
  - astrange 6y ago
    If they were driven they'd own big businesses.
- rufus_foreman 6y ago
  Not to detract from your main point, I agree that people who change countries are going to tend to be more driven than those who don't, but I don't comprehend how "supporting Bernie Sanders" maps to "entrepreneurial".
  - _huayra_ 6y ago
    It was more to say "expat Americans are not proportionately representative of non-expat Americans", i.e. I have not met one Trump supporter while abroad (or if I have, they have kept very quiet).
colinmhayes 6y ago
All immigrants work hard. That's how they ended up here.

_huayra_ 6y ago

Most people who are immigrants have almost by definition a better-than-average work ethic. You can see this if you know a bunch of people from country X when you live in country Y (where Y is usually a country "better off" than X), and then you go visit country X. You'll see that the "expats from X" you see while living in Y may be of a higher caliber (e.g. entrepreneurial, in your example), the people who did not expatriate do not often contain the same values. As someone who lived in the US for a long time and now lives in Europe, I can tell you that all of the Americans I've met over here (who are not vacationing) are incredibly driven and entrepreneurial. They do not at all reflect the average American back in the US (e.g. I don't know a single Trump supporter over here; the Democrats Abroad caucus typically goes far more liberal than any state, supporting Bernie Sanders in 2016 by a very wide margin).

luckylion 6y ago
Not sure how true that generalization is. If you look at Germany, you'll see high unemployment rates (and less education) among immigrants from Turkey and Arabian countries, while you'll see significantly more success on all fronts for immigrants from e.g. Vietnam.
- _huayra_ 6y ago
  I think both can be true: people who emigrate from a country to pursue better career / life opportunities typically are more industrious in my experience than are those who do not (on average; there are plenty of people who don't emigrate who are just as industrious; it's just that those who are NOT industrious do not emigrate at all), while at the same time some immigrants will differ in industriousness based on their country of origin.
- curryst 6y ago
  > If you look at Germany, you'll see high unemployment rates (and less education) among immigrants from Turkey and Arabian countries, while you'll see significantly more success on all fronts for immigrants from e.g. Vietnam. Are refugees counted as immigrants? A lot of the refugees from Syria come through Turkey, so I'm curious if that's throwing off the numbers. Refugees and immigrants aren't really comparable. The most stark difference is that refugees can (and likely will) be sent back when their country stabilizes enough. If you're a refugee, there's little point in building up a new life when you know it will all come to an end.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > Are refugees counted as immigrants? A lot of the refugees from Syria come through Turkey, so I'm curious if that's throwing off the numbers. No, it's about immigrants from Turkey (who came mostly in the 60ies as regular working migrants to both feed Germany's hunger for workers and buy Turkey's entry into NATO). The Vietnamese on the other hand were often refugees, much poorer and with much less support. There aren't any relevant numbers about the migrant crisis '15 yet, it's too recent to get meaningful statistics. > The most stark difference is that refugees can (and likely will) be sent back when their country stabilizes enough. True, but that very rarely happens in Germany. It's considered cruel to deport someone who has lived in Germany for a few years. Deportations of asylum seekers usually only happen for so-called "safe countries", e.g. Balkan states, when the request for asylum is denied.
ed25519FUUU 6y ago
> I can tell you that all of the Americans I've met over here (who are not vacationing) are incredibly driven and entrepreneurial. They do not at all reflect the average American back in the US (e.g. I don't know a single Trump supporter over here; This is a strange observation to me because Trump did very well with the small business owner demographics. https://news.gallup.com/poll/284396/small-business-owners-highly-engaged-2020-election.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/284396/small-business-owners-hi...
- _huayra_ 6y ago
  I would guess that the interests of SMB owners for US residents and expats differ. SMB owners in the US probably think more short-term and think that policies from Trump will help them (which they may, but will ultimately continue the steady decline of the US workforce, e.g. lack of a social safety net, upward mobility, lack of education, a broken patchwork of poorly-maintained car-centric infrastructure). SMB owners who are US citizens abroad, however, are driven by primarily one thing, regardless of party affiliation: who will be most likely to support a rewrite of the punitive tax laws that the US places on its expatriate citizens (which no country other than Eritrea does).
- astrange 6y ago
  If they were driven they'd own big businesses.
rufus_foreman 6y ago
Not to detract from your main point, I agree that people who change countries are going to tend to be more driven than those who don't, but I don't comprehend how "supporting Bernie Sanders" maps to "entrepreneurial".
- _huayra_ 6y ago
  It was more to say "expat Americans are not proportionately representative of non-expat Americans", i.e. I have not met one Trump supporter while abroad (or if I have, they have kept very quiet).

colinmhayes 6y ago

All immigrants work hard. That's how they ended up here.