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In Europe there are a lot of social benefits that mitigate this. - Health care - Worker protections - Required time off - Sick time - Maternity leave etc.
by Justsignedup 6y ago
In Europe there are a lot of social benefits that mitigate this.
- Health care
- Worker protections
- Required time off
- Sick time
- Maternity leave
etc.
Here its $15. And you're on your fucking own.
If you compare it to completely underdeveloped or dictatorial economies... Sure I guess its way better. But the US shouldn't be comparing comparing itself to that. Its like saying "This engineer is horrible, but he's not as bad as this drug addict that is yelling all day outside our front door!"
- resto49 6y agoNo objection that most of EU is better than the US in these regards, but Amazon warehouse workers get some of the best healthcare insurance that I’ve ever seen in the US. Similar to what the top-level-commenter pointed out, I guarantee that the warehouse jobs in Bessemer provide among the best healthcare available in the town. The US as a whole is awful at providing healthcare, but healthcare is a particular area where Amazon actually is going way above what is normal and is provided astonishingly well for its workers.
- motardo 6y agoI'm an Amazon warehouse worker in North Carolina. As far as health insurance, I pay 100% of the first $1500, then 10% of the next $15,000 (so $3000 total), then 0% of anything over $16,500. I wouldn't call that astonishing, but it is the minimum $0 monthly premium plan. Also, I'm generally happy at work. I basically feel well paid and well treated.
- mediaman 6y agoDo they have upgraded plans available for purchase, and are they pretty expensive or reasonable?
- r0m4n0 6y agoNot defending insurance plans in the US whatsoever because I despise their deductible structures but that’s actually pretty good.
- filoleg 6y agoThis is pretty much the same insurance that full-time SWEs at Microsoft receive at Redmond HQ (well, one of the two options, with the other one being tied to Kaiser specifically, but most people I know take the one that's similar to yours). 100% of the first $1.5k, 10% until you hit the total of $3k, and then everything is free. $0 monthly premium as well. That's the one I have myself at the moment. Glad to see someone like you list the real numbers, because I keep hearing "good insurance" when it comes to Amazon warehouses, but this is the first time I saw someone actually point out the specifics. Also glad to hear that Amazon warehouse workers receive health benefits on par with full-time SWEs (not being sarcastic here, I genuinely am happy to hear this is the case).
- slimsag 6y ago(you didn't say this, but) nobody here should fool themselves into thinking a $3k deductible insurance is equal between an Amazon warehouse employee and a SWE at Microsoft. $3k for a Microsoft SWE is a "dang, I wish I didn't have to go to the hospital" situation. $3k for an Amazon warehouse employee earning $15/hr can often be a "there go my savings, I wonder if I got this injury due to the amount of physical activity my job requires" situation.
- lotsofpulp 6y agoThe benefit is the same, and it's far more lavish than any other $15 job offers. Employers paying for 100% of the health insurance premiums are rare.
- astrange 6y agoMicrosoft's healthcare plan used to pay 100% of premiums, but over time it either became unaffordable or didn't work with the ACA. Currently it's something like "we charge you a lot for the first few months but also give you the money to pay it in your HSA", which makes you wonder why they give it to you in the first place. It's not like you can optimize your prescriptions out of your life, so it's not enabling choice.
- eptcyka 6y agoI don't want to entirely discount your experience, but given that Amazon is not beneath sock puppet accounts, how do I know the post is authentic?
- entangledqubit 6y agoReply to the sibling comment comparing to insurance of MS SWE. While the absolute values are comparable, $1500 is quite a bit more of an inconvenience at a warehouser worker pay level than at a SWE salary level. Given the physical nature of the work, I'd consider them more enlightened if they provided a lower deductible at the $0 premium level for every warehouse worker across the board. I'm really getting tired of places treating the long term mental and physical health of workers as an unpriced externality that's later paid for by society. Also, thanks to motardo for the data point. (I will assume you're an actual warehouse worker.)
- PragmaticPulp 6y agoTo help non-US people understand this plan: > but it is the minimum $0 monthly premium plan. The monthly premium is the cost of the insurance plan. A "$0" premium isn't actually $0, it means that Amazon is paying 100% of the monthly costs of maintaining the insurance, requiring $0 contribution from the employee. Many companies (especially warehouse type operations) are less generous, and require some monthly contribution from the employee to pay the premium. The worst health insurance I ever had required me to pay 100% of the monthly premium, with $0 committed by the company. That company lost a lot of employees. > I pay 100% of the first $1500 This is the "deductible". The covered person is responsible for 100% of costs until the deductible is met, although there are many exceptions. For example, a routine checkup might be 100% covered ($0 cost), as well as a range of preventative care procedures described by the ACA. > then 10% of the next $15,000 After the deductible has been met, the person is responsible for coinsurance of additional costs. An extra $5000 procedure would translate to a $500 bill for the patient. > then 0% of anything over $16,500. This is where the "out of pocket maximum" or OOPM is reached. In this case, the most the patient could expect to pay is $1500 (deductible) + $1500 (10% of next $15K) = $3000. After that, all excess charges are handled by the insurance company until the insurance year resets. In short: Health care will cost between $0 and $3000 depending on how many services are used for the year (excluding fully covered benefits like annual checkup, depression screening, breast cancer screening for women, vaccinations, and other services covered for free under the ACA)
- lotsofpulp 6y agoGreat write up! Only caveat is the limits only apply to in network providers (providers that have made a deal with the insurance company), so if you're on a trip and an emergency happens and you end up in a hospital that's not in network, then you're on your own. But I assume a company like Amazon is dealing with a large insurer part of nationwide networks like BCBS. Also, insurance companies have their own doctors and pharmacists that might disagree with the patient's doctor's treatment plans, and will not cover the healthcare costs for those items without a "prior authorization" from the insurer. There's an appeal system in place for this too. Although, this type of thing exists without health insurers too, it's just employees of the government deciding what to approve and not approve.
- cbozeman 6y agoWhat exactly do you do there? From what I understand, order picking there must be god awful, but being the receiving clerk might not be so bad. Being on-site IT might not be so bad. Certainly being the Director of Operations for that warehouse wouldn't be bad... at least I wouldn't think.
- philistine 6y agoWhat happens when those people stop working for Amazon?
- killjoywashere 6y agoDoes Amazon not provide health care to their workers? https://www.amazondelivers.jobs/about/benefits/ https://www.amazondelivers.jobs/about/benefits/
- CarlosEscobedo 6y agoalmost guaranteed though its not completely covered by amazon, and workers have to pay monthly premiums like most jobs that offer healthcare.
- resto49 6y agoThe monthly premium is around $20-80/mo for healthcare plans that are seriously amazing compared to other plans I’ve seen in America, ie $300 deductible and $2000 out of pocket (with $500 of it covered by Amazon).
- bredren 6y agoI was on the bronze-level Obamacare plans for years and it was about $300 for bad coverage in comparison to “real” private insurance. There is so much digging at Amazon I’d like to see the delivery and warehouse work role required performance metrics and work role benefits posted so we can look at facts.
- yourmom2 6y agoIt’s not a binary thing, nutsac.
- extradesgo 6y agoIt offers a company plan that workers DO have to pay for and often choose not to because they cannot afford it.
- randomsearch 6y ago“Are there no workhouses?” Such a difference between talking about working at a warehouse from the outside vs being born into a life that traps you there. I think HN struggles with topics like unionisation because most of us have just never been at the bottom of society without a way out. We’re relatively rich and so highly skilled - we lucked out to be nerds in a world of tech, perhaps due to timing or perhaps because our parents were wealthy enough to put us here. It’s the same phenomena of loving Uber or Airbnb and not understanding the cost to others. I don’t know how to solve this problem. I don’t personally want to go work at an Amazon warehouse so I can see how awful it is. I work damn hard but I know how lucky I must be. How do you get the rich to realise that the poor are simply, by definition, less fortunate?
- sbacic 6y ago"In Europe" in this case means "Western Europe". I'm pretty sure many would take the $15/hour over the social benefits in say, Bulgaria.
- lostlogin 6y agoTouch choice. As far as I can tell, the social welfare system in Bulgaria covers unemployment, healthcare, sick leave, maternity and paternity leave. The country looks like an amazing place, however it’s population is in decline, it is corrupt and it has variety of huge problems. Minimum wage is about US$1.16. https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=1103&langId=en https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=1103&langId=en https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria
- smnrchrds 6y agoNo, it means anywhere in the EU for the most part. For example, EU mandates all member states to give workers at least 4 weeks of paid vacation. Many have 5 or 6 weeks, but 4 is the bare minimum. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32003L0088:EN:HTML https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX...
- u678u 6y agoFree healthcare - yeah I had to go to a hospital in Romania - I'd take my Alabama private hospital any day.
- libraryatnight 6y agoThat likely has more to do with Romania than the free healthcare.
- seriousquestion 6y ago> Here its $15. And you're on your fucking own. You've been mislead by propaganda. They have healthcare, protections, etc.
- binaryblitz 6y agoHow so? In Alabama you cannot qualify for medicaid unless you are a "needy child, parent, caregiver, pregnant woman, or elderly/disabled resident". Meaning you can't qualify just for being low income. While Amazon does provide decent health insurance, most lower income jobs do not. I make good money, and have good health insurance and it would still cost me over $1k to go to the hospital. Imagine doing that with no health insurance while making $10/hr. EDIT: You updated your comment so I'll add on. Sure, Amazon provides health insurance, but a lot of businesses don't. In 2020, ~31 million Americans didn't have insurance. Even if you have health insurance, premiums and deductibles can be astronomical.
- datavirtue 6y agoSo work hard and get a better job. The fact is that you will not if you have a safety net under you. I lived on welfare and refused to make more money until it was a LOT more money. I finally got off the safety net only when my income increased five fold. Even that was a little begrudging because I had $800 a month in food stamps and free medical care and so all those costs got flipped onto me--not to mention the $6000 tax credit I lost and instead had to pay that amount. There are many families who are pulling down far more in benefits than I was. These safety nets are fucked up, and they gotta go. A better alternative is either UBI or a negative income tax.
- dvdkon 6y agoThe worse job you'd leave still need to exist, it's just going to be someone else toiling in unreasonable conditions. Sure, "get a better job" is something people in low-paying jobs should strive for, but it's selfish only to care about one's own situation and ignore the people you're leaving behind.
- ekianjo 6y ago> In Europe there are a lot of social benefits that mitigate this. Europe is not one country. I hope you realize it's hard to generalize.
- _petronius 6y agoAh, my friend, but you can generalize: both from the cultural (Europe in general has stronger welfare states than most US federal and state systems provide), and because members of the EU are bound to EU-wide rules on worker rights. Pluuus, since member states of the EU have freedom of movement within the bloc, companies in the EU compete on these and other factors (like salary), raising the overall standard. (Sometimes problematically, due to brain drain of weaker economies, etc.) So while your comment is half correct, I think you should give the parent commenter the benefit of the doubt before you try and "well actually" them.
- 8bitsrule 6y ago"You load sixteen tons, what do you get? Another day older and deeper in debt Saint Peter don't you call me, 'cause I can't go I owe my soul to the company store"
- mattr47 6y agoAmazon warehouse workers have full health insurance.