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You're conflating FAFSA and Pell Grants. FAFSA is an application for student aid. Pell Grants are the federal government grants given to low-income students. Th

You're conflating FAFSA and Pell Grants. FAFSA is an application for student aid. Pell Grants are the federal government grants given to low-income students. The lifetime limit for Pell Grants is $6,3465. As a low-income student, you may also be eligible for Stafford loans, which are federal subsidized loans. Subsidized meaning that the government pays for any interest accrued while you're a part time student, in your six-month post-graduation grace period, or other deferred status. The estimated cost of attendance at one of the closest public universities, the University of Alabama at Birmingham, has a yearly estimated cost of attendance of $28,695 for in-state students. University isn't 'basically free' for low income students. My parents lived below the poverty line their entire lives. I graduated with my bachelor's degree and $80k worth of loan debt. Sure low-income students might be eligible for needs-based grants and scholarships offered at their college. But federal support for low-income students is pitiful and college for those students is a far cry from free.

resto49 6y ago
What you’re talking about is highly variable based on college choice and location. Federally, the student aid situation isn’t great, but there are many universities that will fully cover all tuition (and sometimes more) if you are under a certain income threshold. See: University of Texas. You’re also narrowly scoping this to talking about one of the largest and fanciest universities in the state. Meanwhile, there are plenty of other colleges in the area that cost fractions of Bama. And of note, Amazon actually pays for up to 95% of tuition/fees for warehouse workers who choose to pursue associates degrees. There are certainly societal problems in the US regarding education costs and healthcare, but these are both areas where Amazon is actually providing for its workers way, way above what the federal government provides, and even way above what is normal for most Americans (the health insurance that Amazon warehouse workers get is likely better than the health insurance of most of the people posting in this thread). This is the kind of stuff that needs to be kept in mind to understand why Bessemer residents don’t all see Amazon as evil.
- whoknew1122 6y ago
  >"but there are many universities that will fully cover all tuition (and sometimes more) if you are under a certain income threshold. See: University of Texas." The University of Texas's program is: 1.) Recent 2.) Covers students enrolled at the time the program went into affect. It doesn't cover recently-graduated students. 3.) Only covers Texas residents (meaning it's irrelevant to a conversation about Amazon employees in Alabama) 4.) Only covers tuition, not cost of living. Cost of living, of course, is more than half of total cost of attendance at the University of Texas. Go ahead. Ask me how I know what it's like to be a low-income student at the University of Texas. > "You’re also narrowly scoping this to talking about one of the largest and fanciest universities in the state." I scoped it to one of two public universities near Bessemer, Alabama. UAB isn't the flagship campus, the University of Alabama at Tuscaloosa. By the way, the other public university near Bessemer is the University of Montevallo. It has a cost of attendance of 27,845 per year for in-state students. > "And of note, Amazon actually pays for up to 95% of tuition/fees for warehouse workers who choose to pursue associates degrees." Is that generous? Yeah. To some extent. But keep in mind the following: 1.) It only applies to associates degrees. 2.) The yearly payout is $3,000 (for full-time employees, half that for part time) 3.) You have to have worked for a year to be eligible 4.) Amazon only covers certain degrees You also have to continue working a demanding job with irregular hours. It's not nothing, I agree. But I've worked other non-skilled jobs with much more generous tuition reimbursement packages (including, but not limited to: eligibility for dependents, unrestricted major choice, applicability to four-year degrees, and more generous yearly maximums). > "This is the kind of stuff that needs to be kept in mind to understand why Bessemer residents don’t all see Amazon as evil." I never said anything about Amazon being evil, or whether Bessemer residents see Amazon as evil. In fact, if you look at my posting history, I've been very upfront that I am an employee of Amazon. Further, 'not being evil' and 'providing more then the federal (or state governments)' is a very low bar to cross. It doesn't obviate the need for a union.
- happilyFIREd 6y ago
  You’re also narrowly scoping this to talking about one of the largest and fanciest universities in the state. Wow, so low-income students should not aspire to go to schools as 'fancy' as U of Alabama? Infuriatingly disingenuous argument.
AlgorithmicTime 6y ago
>University isn't 'basically free' for low income students. My parents lived below the poverty line their entire lives. I graduated with my bachelor's degree and $80k worth of loan debt. You must have done something dumb.
spectramax 6y ago
I went to college (University of Georgia) with Pell Grants for free. 100% free including lodging and dining, both Bachelors + Masters in Physics. My parents were unemployed at the time and we interviewed at the deans office for the grant, I clearly remember when my father broke down in tears. I had to borrow friend's books, use the library scanner to create PDFs of the pages that were important - couldn't afford textbooks. I am eternally grateful for the FAFSA/Pell Grant program. Without it, I wouldn't be conducting fundamental science and getting paid 6 figures. I know this is N=1 sample size, just wanted to put it out there. I think college should be free only for people that cannot afford it. Rich kids should pay.
- bhupy 6y ago
  I went to Georgia Tech, and another huge advantage in Georgia is the HOPE and Zell-Miller scholarships. IMO a model that should be replicated by other States in the Union.
  - spectramax 6y ago
    Oh yea, I also had HOPE scholarship I remembered now. It required minimum GPA from highschool if I recall. Here is some more information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOPE_Scholarship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOPE_Scholarship
bhupy 6y ago
Sorry to hear that you had $80k worth of debt, that's certainly a lot. It's also several standard deviations above the median. The median student loan debt in the US is about $17,000 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/02/03/student-loan-debt-statistics/?sh=d63d9ee281fe https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/02/03/student...). In Alabama, you can actually use the net price calculator here: https://financialaid.ua.edu/net-price-calculator/ https://financialaid.ua.edu/net-price-calculator/ For a family of 2 that earns minimum wage tuition goes as low as $8,000/year in total, and that's excluding any Federal grants or loans. Generally speaking, sticker price != net price for the vast majority of students: https://www.manhattan-institute.org/new-approach-curbing-college-tuition-inflation https://www.manhattan-institute.org/new-approach-curbing-col... From the link: "The average annual net cost at a four-year public college has grown by almost 81% beyond inflation over the past decade, to $3,870." Again, I'm sorry to hear about your personal experience; it's totally valid. It's, however, not representative of the median or the majority of the lower class.
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  > For a family of 2 that earns minimum wage tuition goes as low as $8,000/year in total, and that's excluding any Federal grants or loans. To rephrase: "For a family of 2 that earns minimum wage, tuition remains more than 50% of your gross income."
  - bhupy 6y ago
    That's ignoring Federal grants. Once you factor in all external grants, the median per-year tuition is half of that, if you read the last link. And that's the median. The bottom quintile is ostensibly much less.
    - joshuamorton 6y ago
      Tuition also does not reflect the full cost of attendance (books, materials can be hundreds or even thousands a semester, depending on your major, and housing can in some cases exceed tuition[0]). The same source notes that the net TFRB (which I'm reading as cost of attendance, as it isn't defined anywhere) is $15,500, with $6,500 in grants. Or a CoA of ~$9,000 annually. This remains above the 50% number I mentioned. And it's worth noting that these grants aren't solely federal grants. Universities (and states) offer all kinds of non-need-based aid. The one I'm familiar with, since I'm from Georgia, is the Hope scholarship. This grant offers 6-10K per year, which is amazing, unless you lose it part way through your education (by failing to maintain what can be a fairly difficult GPA requirement). I nearly lost it my first year. That would have been an additional cost of ~20K over the remainder of my education. That was stressful for me, an upper middle class person with financially responsible parents who had decent savings for my education. That kind of stress would be compounded for someone who started in more dire financial straits, and who was more heavily relying on the grant money. [0]: And while some people can live at home, this is not available to many people, and can negatively impact your ability to network and build a social support network with peers at university, which is extremely valuable.
colinmhayes 6y ago
If you were below the poverty line when you attended university you could've attended most state schools for free.
- whoknew1122 6y ago
  Tell that to my student loans. You can try to lie to others, but you're not going to gaslight me.
  - colinmhayes 6y ago
    You fucked up. Could've attended college for free, but decided not to.
xadhominemx 6y ago
No one’s saying it’s impossible for someone like to you spend $80k on a four year degree, just that you don’t have to.

resto49 6y ago

What you’re talking about is highly variable based on college choice and location. Federally, the student aid situation isn’t great, but there are many universities that will fully cover all tuition (and sometimes more) if you are under a certain income threshold. See: University of Texas. You’re also narrowly scoping this to talking about one of the largest and fanciest universities in the state. Meanwhile, there are plenty of other colleges in the area that cost fractions of Bama. And of note, Amazon actually pays for up to 95% of tuition/fees for warehouse workers who choose to pursue associates degrees. There are certainly societal problems in the US regarding education costs and healthcare, but these are both areas where Amazon is actually providing for its workers way, way above what the federal government provides, and even way above what is normal for most Americans (the health insurance that Amazon warehouse workers get is likely better than the health insurance of most of the people posting in this thread). This is the kind of stuff that needs to be kept in mind to understand why Bessemer residents don’t all see Amazon as evil.

whoknew1122 6y ago
>"but there are many universities that will fully cover all tuition (and sometimes more) if you are under a certain income threshold. See: University of Texas." The University of Texas's program is: 1.) Recent 2.) Covers students enrolled at the time the program went into affect. It doesn't cover recently-graduated students. 3.) Only covers Texas residents (meaning it's irrelevant to a conversation about Amazon employees in Alabama) 4.) Only covers tuition, not cost of living. Cost of living, of course, is more than half of total cost of attendance at the University of Texas. Go ahead. Ask me how I know what it's like to be a low-income student at the University of Texas. > "You’re also narrowly scoping this to talking about one of the largest and fanciest universities in the state." I scoped it to one of two public universities near Bessemer, Alabama. UAB isn't the flagship campus, the University of Alabama at Tuscaloosa. By the way, the other public university near Bessemer is the University of Montevallo. It has a cost of attendance of 27,845 per year for in-state students. > "And of note, Amazon actually pays for up to 95% of tuition/fees for warehouse workers who choose to pursue associates degrees." Is that generous? Yeah. To some extent. But keep in mind the following: 1.) It only applies to associates degrees. 2.) The yearly payout is $3,000 (for full-time employees, half that for part time) 3.) You have to have worked for a year to be eligible 4.) Amazon only covers certain degrees You also have to continue working a demanding job with irregular hours. It's not nothing, I agree. But I've worked other non-skilled jobs with much more generous tuition reimbursement packages (including, but not limited to: eligibility for dependents, unrestricted major choice, applicability to four-year degrees, and more generous yearly maximums). > "This is the kind of stuff that needs to be kept in mind to understand why Bessemer residents don’t all see Amazon as evil." I never said anything about Amazon being evil, or whether Bessemer residents see Amazon as evil. In fact, if you look at my posting history, I've been very upfront that I am an employee of Amazon. Further, 'not being evil' and 'providing more then the federal (or state governments)' is a very low bar to cross. It doesn't obviate the need for a union.
happilyFIREd 6y ago
You’re also narrowly scoping this to talking about one of the largest and fanciest universities in the state. Wow, so low-income students should not aspire to go to schools as 'fancy' as U of Alabama? Infuriatingly disingenuous argument.

AlgorithmicTime 6y ago

>University isn't 'basically free' for low income students. My parents lived below the poverty line their entire lives. I graduated with my bachelor's degree and $80k worth of loan debt. You must have done something dumb.

spectramax 6y ago

I went to college (University of Georgia) with Pell Grants for free. 100% free including lodging and dining, both Bachelors + Masters in Physics. My parents were unemployed at the time and we interviewed at the deans office for the grant, I clearly remember when my father broke down in tears. I had to borrow friend's books, use the library scanner to create PDFs of the pages that were important - couldn't afford textbooks. I am eternally grateful for the FAFSA/Pell Grant program. Without it, I wouldn't be conducting fundamental science and getting paid 6 figures. I know this is N=1 sample size, just wanted to put it out there. I think college should be free only for people that cannot afford it. Rich kids should pay.

bhupy 6y ago
I went to Georgia Tech, and another huge advantage in Georgia is the HOPE and Zell-Miller scholarships. IMO a model that should be replicated by other States in the Union.
- spectramax 6y ago
  Oh yea, I also had HOPE scholarship I remembered now. It required minimum GPA from highschool if I recall. Here is some more information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOPE_Scholarship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOPE_Scholarship

bhupy 6y ago

Sorry to hear that you had $80k worth of debt, that's certainly a lot. It's also several standard deviations above the median. The median student loan debt in the US is about $17,000 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/02/03/student-loan-debt-statistics/?sh=d63d9ee281fe https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/02/03/student...). In Alabama, you can actually use the net price calculator here: https://financialaid.ua.edu/net-price-calculator/ https://financialaid.ua.edu/net-price-calculator/ For a family of 2 that earns minimum wage tuition goes as low as $8,000/year in total, and that's excluding any Federal grants or loans. Generally speaking, sticker price != net price for the vast majority of students: https://www.manhattan-institute.org/new-approach-curbing-college-tuition-inflation https://www.manhattan-institute.org/new-approach-curbing-col... From the link: "The average annual net cost at a four-year public college has grown by almost 81% beyond inflation over the past decade, to $3,870." Again, I'm sorry to hear about your personal experience; it's totally valid. It's, however, not representative of the median or the majority of the lower class.

joshuamorton 6y ago
> For a family of 2 that earns minimum wage tuition goes as low as $8,000/year in total, and that's excluding any Federal grants or loans. To rephrase: "For a family of 2 that earns minimum wage, tuition remains more than 50% of your gross income."
- bhupy 6y ago
  That's ignoring Federal grants. Once you factor in all external grants, the median per-year tuition is half of that, if you read the last link. And that's the median. The bottom quintile is ostensibly much less.
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    Tuition also does not reflect the full cost of attendance (books, materials can be hundreds or even thousands a semester, depending on your major, and housing can in some cases exceed tuition[0]). The same source notes that the net TFRB (which I'm reading as cost of attendance, as it isn't defined anywhere) is $15,500, with $6,500 in grants. Or a CoA of ~$9,000 annually. This remains above the 50% number I mentioned. And it's worth noting that these grants aren't solely federal grants. Universities (and states) offer all kinds of non-need-based aid. The one I'm familiar with, since I'm from Georgia, is the Hope scholarship. This grant offers 6-10K per year, which is amazing, unless you lose it part way through your education (by failing to maintain what can be a fairly difficult GPA requirement). I nearly lost it my first year. That would have been an additional cost of ~20K over the remainder of my education. That was stressful for me, an upper middle class person with financially responsible parents who had decent savings for my education. That kind of stress would be compounded for someone who started in more dire financial straits, and who was more heavily relying on the grant money. [0]: And while some people can live at home, this is not available to many people, and can negatively impact your ability to network and build a social support network with peers at university, which is extremely valuable.

colinmhayes 6y ago

If you were below the poverty line when you attended university you could've attended most state schools for free.

whoknew1122 6y ago
Tell that to my student loans. You can try to lie to others, but you're not going to gaslight me.
- colinmhayes 6y ago
  You fucked up. Could've attended college for free, but decided not to.

xadhominemx 6y ago

No one’s saying it’s impossible for someone like to you spend $80k on a four year degree, just that you don’t have to.