11 ms·

While that might be right,You are not taking into account that in Europe you get free healthcare & education.

fearling 6y ago
Education is free up til college in the US and the healthcare for Amazon warehouse workers is the same as for their engineers and Jeff Bezos.
- nathanappere 6y ago
  You mean costs the same and as a result is entirely a function of how well you're paid in order to be able to afford better coverage?
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    It means the employer has to offer a sufficiently generous benefit so that enough of the company’s lower income employees sign up for it, such that it passes non discrimination testing rules. Which means the health insurance benefit must be good enough that even the lower paid employees find it makes sense to sign up for it.
    - dlp211 6y ago
      This ignores that health insurance is generally pretty inelastic in its demand.
  - bhupy 6y ago
    No, exactly the opposite. ERISA is a Federal law that strictly regulates how plan fiduciaries can operate employer-sponsored health plans. A key element of ERISA is that an employer cannot offer more generous benefits to some employers over other; everyone in the company must be offered the same plans, and within each plan, every beneficiary must be treated the same.
    - deckard1 6y ago
      prior to the No Surprises Act just signed (and maybe after too?) ERISA allowed for balance billing. Which means not even California laws against balance billing would apply. For anyone not living in the permanently-fucked US, an explanation: your health insurance covers you for "in network" doctors at an "in network" hospital. If you go to an "in network" hospital you would assume (wrongly) that you are fully covered. But no. Some random anesthesiologist can come into your room, provide their service for 20 minutes, and stick you with a $5,000 bill because they are "out of network". And you have ERISA insurance and you are just plain fucked. Anyone getting health services in the US must hang a sign on their door saying "In Network Only". I'm 100% serious. Every person that walks in your room must be vetted. And good luck if they can't find an "in network" surgeon for that emergency service or whatever.
      - bhupy 6y ago
        Full disclosure: I work in this industry and am a claims adjuster on fiduciary plans that fall under ERISA Everything you're saying is partially correct, but it heavily depends on the specifics of the plan. FAANG companies, in particular, typically have extremely generous PPO plans that offer 0 co-insurance and broad networks. You're correct that, out-of-network, balance billing may occur, but Amazon's plans have networks so broad that this is unlikely to happen. In addition, if you look at Amazon's plan documentation, they also offer a Kaiser HMO for which none of this applies. There's a lot that can be improved around price transparency, but Amazon is one of the few companies that offers Cadillac gold-standard insurance, and because ERISA requires that all employees receive the same benefits, this extends to their full-time warehouse workers too.
        deckard1 6y ago
        > but it heavily depends on the specifics of the plan > Amazon's plans have networks so broad that this is unlikely to happen I mean, this doesn't sound reassuring you know. "unlikely" and "depends on the specifics". That's kind of the problem. No one knows what is covered and what is not. Billing in the US is this labyrinthine thing where hospitals, doctors, and insurance all seem to be making it up as they go along in conjunction with whatever they feel are the laws and whatever they feel like they can get away with. Leaving it up to the patient to appeal after appeal after appeal on a flood of bills they will receive, depending on their operation or service. You can't even get a detailed bill out of some of these places. The doctors vanish and you're literally stuck talking to one of those robocalling bill collector agencies, which probably has a PO Box in fucking Alaska. It's shady as hell. All of it.
  - fearling 6y ago
    Decide for yourself how to think about affording these plans: https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/benefitsoverview-us https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/benefitsoverview-us
- cwwc 6y ago
  And education is free at almost all Ivy’s if you’re below a 100K or so salary family. That said: prereq is you’re bonkers smart.
  - bhupy 6y ago
    The same is true at the in-state universities. At that salary, your kid can study at University of Alabama (a perfectly fine institution with great campus life) basically for free.
    - naturalauction 6y ago
      The University of Alabama also has surprisingly good merit scholarships for students who are from out of state. I was considering going there and they offered me full tuition + 2 years of housing covered + some other grants (and I wasn't even that good of a student, definitely not Ivy caliber).
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    *and do not have significant assets or college savings
  - stcredzero 6y ago
    That said: prereq is you’re bonkers smart. Meh. I went to an Ivy league, as did my sister. My wife was a grad student at Stanford. My classmates were clever, but they weren't that smart! The standardized test scores can be improved with work. As for standing out with your essay and CV, I remember a talk from an admissions officer from Harvard. His take was that it's easy to stand out from 99% of students just by actually doing real, substantive work. He wasn't talking about the stuff that's designed to be a student CV stuffer to impress admissions. Do actual, substantive work. Something like a substantive contribution to a scientific field. Amateurs can still do this. Maybe run a real business. The example this admissions officer gave was someone who dropped out of High School, got a GED, then started repairing motorcycle engines. Then, you also need to make sure your essay is well written, which is another skill which can be learned. Relate your experience back to the academic opportunity, and how this would enable you to benefit society. There is a problem with this way of thinking of admissions: If you do pursue it in earnest, you might well decide to skip university entirely.
bhupy 6y ago
The warehouse workers get the same (extremely generous) healthcare as every other Amazon employee (due to ERISA). And even if they didn't, through the Affordable Care Act, someone at that income level can buy a "Gold" plan with low deductibles for $75/month. Obviously for Amazon workers, that's irrelevant. K-12 education is free, and once you factor in-state tuition and FAFSA, university is also basically free for anyone that continues to make minimum wage throughout their career.
- starlust2 6y ago
  Neither of the options you listed is free.
  - bhupy 6y ago
    Sure, and healthcare isn't "literally free" in loads of high standard of living first world countries. In France, for example, there's a 20% coinsurance that's paid on all treatments. With a few exceptions, most single payer countries have co-pays. Amazon's plans can be found here: https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/benefitsoverview-us https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/benefitsoverview-us These plans are extended to every single Amazon employee, including the warehouse workers. Most of the warehouse workers we're talking about would probably choose the Kaiser HMO that has $0 deductible and 100% coverage; all they would pay is $30 co-pay. This is more or less how the single payer healthcare works in Australia, for example.
    - dangoor 6y ago
      > Most of the warehouse workers we're talking about would probably choose the Kaiser HMO that has $0 deductible and 100% coverage; No. We're talking about workers in Alabama, and Kaiser is listed on that very page as regional: Kaiser Permanente HMO (California, Colorado, D.C., Maryland, Virginia, Washington) I'm assuming Amazon charges employees some portion of the insurance premium, as most employers do? Also, there's this: > Amazon’s benefits can vary by location, the number of regularly scheduled hours you work, length of employment, and job status such as seasonal or temporary employment.
kmlx 6y ago
free? they’re paid for by taxes.
- astrange 6y ago
  Free at the point of service is a great solution considering being hospitalized is exactly when you can't afford to pay for things.
plexman 6y ago
Free? Nothing is free, what do you mean? Healthcare and education don't grow on trees. Dublin income tax is between 30% to 40%, you pay one way or another.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  The you paying taxes in question might be different from the you that is unable to afford healthcare.
j7ake 6y ago
Healthcare isn’t free in most countries in Europe. Germany and Netherlands for example the payment is in the order of 100 euros a month for health insurance.
wolfsayswof 6y ago
That and more: 1. universal disability benefits 2. usually min 20 days of vacation 3. pension 4. unemployment benefits incomparable to the US 5. unpaid overtime is usually taboo I live in the US (originally from EU) and I don't like people arguing the EU healthcare sucks without experiencing it themselves. No matter what your job/status is, you don't have to be scared to see any doctor - dentist, specialist, eye doctor...
- NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
  Well, specifics vary; like in the U.K. - good luck on finding an NHS dentist. Virtually everyone I knew in the U.K. had private dentistry despite it putatively being covered by the NHS.
  - genewitch 6y ago
    in the US a "simple" no frills root canal and cap costs $600 for the drill and fill, and about $500 or $600 for the cap/crown/whatever milling. That includes anesthesia, post care prescription (not the medicine itself, just the scrip), x-rays, etc. Usually you know when you need a root canal. It's usually because just getting a tooth filled is more expensive than getting it pulled, and most 'decent' dentists won't do pulls, because it eventually, allegedly, leads to all of your teeth shifting and falling out. I've had dental insurance a couple of times, and while it was $20 to get a full cleaning and xray or whatever, they wanted me to get braces for $2500 out of pocket. I've never had another dentist i was paying for myself ever mention braces or anything else. from 20-38 i went to the dentist like 5 times, 3 cleanings when i had insurance, and 2 wisdom extraction. I'm well aware i lucked out in the dentistry lottery, most people i know have way more problems with their teeth, and i am unsure why, so i never judge people on their dental accoutrements.
zajio1am 6y ago
> You are not taking into account that in Europe you get free healthcare Single payer health care is not necessary 'free'. Here in Czechia one pays mandatory 'health tax/insurance' in addition to regular income tax. But still (IMHO) better than US system.
ekianjo 6y ago
> free healthcare & education. Not everywhere in Europe, and "free healthcare" is largely a myth. It's free until it's not. You need glasses? Out of your pocket, and it's super expensive. You need to stay in hospital? It's not going to be anywhere free. And they will kick you out as soon as they can as they are starving for beds and resources. Good luck with that. Sure, you can always go to the emergencies to get free treatment, and wait 10 hours to see someone who is overworked to diagnose your issues.
- wolfsayswof 6y ago
  Basic glasses are usually at least partially covered, and whatever extra you need to pay for frames is very affordable unless you want a designer brand. Nobody is ever going to kick you out of hospital. It's covered and the stay is usually longer than in the US where they kick you out right after you wake up. The wait times are not worse than in the US, never had to wait more than 2-3 hrs in the hospital. Neither you would ever receive a surprise bill from the hospital.
dev_tty01 6y ago
Ok, this is perhaps a pedantic rant, but this term "free healthcare" is not valid. Money came out of citizen's pay checks to pay for the healthcare. Why do we keep using this term? There is no such thing as free healthcare. There is taxpayer paid healthcare. I'm not being critical of taxpayer paid healthcare. Those countries made that choice as to how they would pay for healthcare. Cool. Sounds like a good choice. But can we stop calling it "free" please. Education is also not free... Rant off. Sorry for the interruption.

Education is free up til college in the US and the healthcare for Amazon warehouse workers is the same as for their engineers and Jeff Bezos.

nathanappere 6y ago
You mean costs the same and as a result is entirely a function of how well you're paid in order to be able to afford better coverage?
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  It means the employer has to offer a sufficiently generous benefit so that enough of the company’s lower income employees sign up for it, such that it passes non discrimination testing rules. Which means the health insurance benefit must be good enough that even the lower paid employees find it makes sense to sign up for it.
  - dlp211 6y ago
    This ignores that health insurance is generally pretty inelastic in its demand.
- bhupy 6y ago
  No, exactly the opposite. ERISA is a Federal law that strictly regulates how plan fiduciaries can operate employer-sponsored health plans. A key element of ERISA is that an employer cannot offer more generous benefits to some employers over other; everyone in the company must be offered the same plans, and within each plan, every beneficiary must be treated the same.
  - deckard1 6y ago
    prior to the No Surprises Act just signed (and maybe after too?) ERISA allowed for balance billing. Which means not even California laws against balance billing would apply. For anyone not living in the permanently-fucked US, an explanation: your health insurance covers you for "in network" doctors at an "in network" hospital. If you go to an "in network" hospital you would assume (wrongly) that you are fully covered. But no. Some random anesthesiologist can come into your room, provide their service for 20 minutes, and stick you with a $5,000 bill because they are "out of network". And you have ERISA insurance and you are just plain fucked. Anyone getting health services in the US must hang a sign on their door saying "In Network Only". I'm 100% serious. Every person that walks in your room must be vetted. And good luck if they can't find an "in network" surgeon for that emergency service or whatever.
    - bhupy 6y ago
      Full disclosure: I work in this industry and am a claims adjuster on fiduciary plans that fall under ERISA Everything you're saying is partially correct, but it heavily depends on the specifics of the plan. FAANG companies, in particular, typically have extremely generous PPO plans that offer 0 co-insurance and broad networks. You're correct that, out-of-network, balance billing may occur, but Amazon's plans have networks so broad that this is unlikely to happen. In addition, if you look at Amazon's plan documentation, they also offer a Kaiser HMO for which none of this applies. There's a lot that can be improved around price transparency, but Amazon is one of the few companies that offers Cadillac gold-standard insurance, and because ERISA requires that all employees receive the same benefits, this extends to their full-time warehouse workers too.
      - deckard1 6y ago
        > but it heavily depends on the specifics of the plan > Amazon's plans have networks so broad that this is unlikely to happen I mean, this doesn't sound reassuring you know. "unlikely" and "depends on the specifics". That's kind of the problem. No one knows what is covered and what is not. Billing in the US is this labyrinthine thing where hospitals, doctors, and insurance all seem to be making it up as they go along in conjunction with whatever they feel are the laws and whatever they feel like they can get away with. Leaving it up to the patient to appeal after appeal after appeal on a flood of bills they will receive, depending on their operation or service. You can't even get a detailed bill out of some of these places. The doctors vanish and you're literally stuck talking to one of those robocalling bill collector agencies, which probably has a PO Box in fucking Alaska. It's shady as hell. All of it.
- fearling 6y ago
  Decide for yourself how to think about affording these plans: https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/benefitsoverview-us https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/benefitsoverview-us
cwwc 6y ago
And education is free at almost all Ivy’s if you’re below a 100K or so salary family. That said: prereq is you’re bonkers smart.
- bhupy 6y ago
  The same is true at the in-state universities. At that salary, your kid can study at University of Alabama (a perfectly fine institution with great campus life) basically for free.
  - naturalauction 6y ago
    The University of Alabama also has surprisingly good merit scholarships for students who are from out of state. I was considering going there and they offered me full tuition + 2 years of housing covered + some other grants (and I wasn't even that good of a student, definitely not Ivy caliber).
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  *and do not have significant assets or college savings
- stcredzero 6y ago
  That said: prereq is you’re bonkers smart. Meh. I went to an Ivy league, as did my sister. My wife was a grad student at Stanford. My classmates were clever, but they weren't that smart! The standardized test scores can be improved with work. As for standing out with your essay and CV, I remember a talk from an admissions officer from Harvard. His take was that it's easy to stand out from 99% of students just by actually doing real, substantive work. He wasn't talking about the stuff that's designed to be a student CV stuffer to impress admissions. Do actual, substantive work. Something like a substantive contribution to a scientific field. Amateurs can still do this. Maybe run a real business. The example this admissions officer gave was someone who dropped out of High School, got a GED, then started repairing motorcycle engines. Then, you also need to make sure your essay is well written, which is another skill which can be learned. Relate your experience back to the academic opportunity, and how this would enable you to benefit society. There is a problem with this way of thinking of admissions: If you do pursue it in earnest, you might well decide to skip university entirely.

bhupy 6y ago

The warehouse workers get the same (extremely generous) healthcare as every other Amazon employee (due to ERISA). And even if they didn't, through the Affordable Care Act, someone at that income level can buy a "Gold" plan with low deductibles for $75/month. Obviously for Amazon workers, that's irrelevant. K-12 education is free, and once you factor in-state tuition and FAFSA, university is also basically free for anyone that continues to make minimum wage throughout their career.

starlust2 6y ago
Neither of the options you listed is free.
- bhupy 6y ago
  Sure, and healthcare isn't "literally free" in loads of high standard of living first world countries. In France, for example, there's a 20% coinsurance that's paid on all treatments. With a few exceptions, most single payer countries have co-pays. Amazon's plans can be found here: https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/benefitsoverview-us https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/benefitsoverview-us These plans are extended to every single Amazon employee, including the warehouse workers. Most of the warehouse workers we're talking about would probably choose the Kaiser HMO that has $0 deductible and 100% coverage; all they would pay is $30 co-pay. This is more or less how the single payer healthcare works in Australia, for example.
  - dangoor 6y ago
    > Most of the warehouse workers we're talking about would probably choose the Kaiser HMO that has $0 deductible and 100% coverage; No. We're talking about workers in Alabama, and Kaiser is listed on that very page as regional: Kaiser Permanente HMO (California, Colorado, D.C., Maryland, Virginia, Washington) I'm assuming Amazon charges employees some portion of the insurance premium, as most employers do? Also, there's this: > Amazon’s benefits can vary by location, the number of regularly scheduled hours you work, length of employment, and job status such as seasonal or temporary employment.

kmlx 6y ago

free? they’re paid for by taxes.

astrange 6y ago
Free at the point of service is a great solution considering being hospitalized is exactly when you can't afford to pay for things.

plexman 6y ago

Free? Nothing is free, what do you mean? Healthcare and education don't grow on trees. Dublin income tax is between 30% to 40%, you pay one way or another.

whimsicalism 6y ago
The you paying taxes in question might be different from the you that is unable to afford healthcare.

j7ake 6y ago

Healthcare isn’t free in most countries in Europe. Germany and Netherlands for example the payment is in the order of 100 euros a month for health insurance.

wolfsayswof 6y ago

That and more: 1. universal disability benefits 2. usually min 20 days of vacation 3. pension 4. unemployment benefits incomparable to the US 5. unpaid overtime is usually taboo I live in the US (originally from EU) and I don't like people arguing the EU healthcare sucks without experiencing it themselves. No matter what your job/status is, you don't have to be scared to see any doctor - dentist, specialist, eye doctor...

NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
Well, specifics vary; like in the U.K. - good luck on finding an NHS dentist. Virtually everyone I knew in the U.K. had private dentistry despite it putatively being covered by the NHS.
- genewitch 6y ago
  in the US a "simple" no frills root canal and cap costs $600 for the drill and fill, and about $500 or $600 for the cap/crown/whatever milling. That includes anesthesia, post care prescription (not the medicine itself, just the scrip), x-rays, etc. Usually you know when you need a root canal. It's usually because just getting a tooth filled is more expensive than getting it pulled, and most 'decent' dentists won't do pulls, because it eventually, allegedly, leads to all of your teeth shifting and falling out. I've had dental insurance a couple of times, and while it was $20 to get a full cleaning and xray or whatever, they wanted me to get braces for $2500 out of pocket. I've never had another dentist i was paying for myself ever mention braces or anything else. from 20-38 i went to the dentist like 5 times, 3 cleanings when i had insurance, and 2 wisdom extraction. I'm well aware i lucked out in the dentistry lottery, most people i know have way more problems with their teeth, and i am unsure why, so i never judge people on their dental accoutrements.

zajio1am 6y ago

> You are not taking into account that in Europe you get free healthcare Single payer health care is not necessary 'free'. Here in Czechia one pays mandatory 'health tax/insurance' in addition to regular income tax. But still (IMHO) better than US system.

ekianjo 6y ago

> free healthcare & education. Not everywhere in Europe, and "free healthcare" is largely a myth. It's free until it's not. You need glasses? Out of your pocket, and it's super expensive. You need to stay in hospital? It's not going to be anywhere free. And they will kick you out as soon as they can as they are starving for beds and resources. Good luck with that. Sure, you can always go to the emergencies to get free treatment, and wait 10 hours to see someone who is overworked to diagnose your issues.

wolfsayswof 6y ago
Basic glasses are usually at least partially covered, and whatever extra you need to pay for frames is very affordable unless you want a designer brand. Nobody is ever going to kick you out of hospital. It's covered and the stay is usually longer than in the US where they kick you out right after you wake up. The wait times are not worse than in the US, never had to wait more than 2-3 hrs in the hospital. Neither you would ever receive a surprise bill from the hospital.

dev_tty01 6y ago

Ok, this is perhaps a pedantic rant, but this term "free healthcare" is not valid. Money came out of citizen's pay checks to pay for the healthcare. Why do we keep using this term? There is no such thing as free healthcare. There is taxpayer paid healthcare. I'm not being critical of taxpayer paid healthcare. Those countries made that choice as to how they would pay for healthcare. Cool. Sounds like a good choice. But can we stop calling it "free" please. Education is also not free... Rant off. Sorry for the interruption.