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From what I can tell, a lot of people in tech are anti blue collar union, but mistakenly assume that blue-collar unions are all unions. For example, just in th

From what I can tell, a lot of people in tech are anti blue collar union, but mistakenly assume that blue-collar unions are all unions. For example, just in the replies to your comment people are saying they dislike unions because they protect the incompetent, stifle progression, give preferential treatment purely on seniority, etc. But then go look at Hollywood, with the Screen Actors Guild, the Writers Guild, the PGA, etc. These are unions that have some of the most highly paid and richest people in the world as members. The same is true in the sports world. And sure, these unions are not perfect by a long shot, but they are doing a huge amount to hold what is ultimately a very exploitative industry to account. Of course, companies like Google, Amazon, and the like would much prefer software engineers continued to think that all unions were like the Teamsters. They don't want you to know that there's a whole class of professional unions serving some of the most highly paid people and engaging in collective bargaining.

function_seven 5y ago
The union Amazon warehouse voted against (the RWDSU) is a blue collar union. Your point is a good one when we see the backlash against unions in software engineering and related fields. I just wanted to bring it back around to why anti-union comments on this story specifically would be right to cite their problems you listed in the 2nd sentence.
qeternity 5y ago
And conversely there are plenty of good employers who don’t require unionization to treat employees well. The point is that these situations are often framed as the angelic unions vs the evil capitalist employer. In reality, there are plenty of bad unions just as there are plenty of bad employers.
brianwawok 5y ago
So, do you know anyone say 20 something and trying to get into the SAG? Dealing with the drama of union vs off union jobs in NYC? It's usually something like: Work the union job for $10 an hour, earn credit towards joining the SAG. In 10 years I can actually join the SAG and make actual decent paying jobs, and actually get health insurance. vs Work a non-union job for $20. It feels very much like a way to exploit people to let them someday get the magic card. The numbers are very approximate, but the sentiment I have gotten from people actually with boots on the ground. Do I want this as a developer? No way!
toby 5y ago
Guilds are a little different from unions in practice. They set minimum standards but there's no group negotiation based on seniority or anything like that. Studios are free to pay some hot rising star 100x as much as the guy who has been a character actor for 30 years as long as he's making the minimum and getting his breaks and meals and stuff. It's also a challenge to get into a guild, SAG has minimum requirements for having already performed. A union is generally just something you have to join when you take a job at a unionized company. This is not a value judgment, just wanted to point out the differences.
- bena 5y ago
  Why are you making his argument for him? He pointed out that not all unions are the doom and gloom version where you can't carry lightbulbs (seriously people, don't ever use that example, it's right out of the anti-union video, obvious tell) and good people can't get promotions because of blah blah blah. You then responded by saying it doesn't count because it's different. Yeah, that's the point. A "union" isn't a thing like gravity. It doesn't only work one way. It a collection of workers who want to collectively bargain with an employer to bring some balance to the power dynamic between huge companies and individual workers. Whatever rules the union wants to set out are up to them.
  - toby 5y ago
    I'm not arguing, if anything I'm agreeing, was just trying to clarify some things.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    Lol not every comment reply has to be an absolute refutation of the parent comment! They were agreeing with the person they were replying to... wow can't have that can we!
  - stale2002 5y ago
    The contract provisions described regarding these high end unions are doom and gloom though. Contract provisions that screw over newcomers, and set up additional barriers to entry are not good. I do not want the tech industry to discriminate against new comers, or developers who don't have a CS degree, or H1Bs more than it is already doing so. And that is what those kinds of unions do to the industry. They setup barriers to entry to target these groups.
yibg 5y ago
Everyone points to SAG as an example of a good union. But how many of these are there? If there are dozens of examples of "bad unions" and a single example of a "good union", that doesn't exactly give someone voting to unionize high confidence.
- rootsofallevil 5y ago
  Talk to people in places like Germany and you might get a different take about bad/good unions
  - yibg 5y ago
    This didn't happen in Germany, this happened in the US. For whatever reason unions behave differently here, and it's the union model in the US that people rightfully evaluate against.
- toby 5y ago
  That's because SAG is a guild, not a union, and it works because every known actor is voluntarily a member, so you can't make a movie without agreeing to their rules.
  - athms 5y ago
    SAG-AFTRA meets the definition of a labor union under federal and state law. It negotiates working conditions, compensation, and benefits with production companies and studios. It is treated in the manner as other labor unions such as IATSE, IBEW, and Teamsters.
  - labcomputer 5y ago
    That's because true Scotsmen are not allowed to join SAG.
stale2002 5y ago
Even the high end unions have pretty big problems. Things like the actors guild are simple rent seeking at the expense of newcomings. They are setup in a way where only insiders are allowed to get jobs at certain places, and there are large barriers to entry to becoming an insider. If we were to apply this to tech, it would be contract provisions that keep out engineers that dont have degree, or discrimination against H1B immigrants. And I don't want the tech industry to have contractual provisions that discriminate against these groups, and would be willing to spend a huge amount of effort fighting people who want to do that. (And based on comments that I have read on hacker news, there really are a lot of people who want to screw over self-taught developers, or immigrants)
- disposekinetics 5y ago
  Why would I ever join a union that didn't protect me from rampant undercutting via importing more workers? That is the whole reason I would join a union.
  - stale2002 5y ago
    > Why would I ever join a union that didn't protect me from rampant undercutting via importing more workers? I understand that you want to retaliate against immigrants and people from other countries. But if that is your opinion then don't expect anyone who has an H1B visa to ever agree with you. You should probably expect people who don't hate immigrants to fight against your efforts though, and to take actions to sabotage the union. Don't expect to ever get those other people on your side, if your argument is that you just don't want foreign workers to be able to get jobs here.
    - disposekinetics 5y ago
      A union that doesn't protect their members is pretty hopeless.
athms 5y ago
The Producers Guild of America (PGA) is NOT a union, it is a trade association.

function_seven 5y ago

The union Amazon warehouse voted against (the RWDSU) is a blue collar union. Your point is a good one when we see the backlash against unions in software engineering and related fields. I just wanted to bring it back around to why anti-union comments on this story specifically would be right to cite their problems you listed in the 2nd sentence.

qeternity 5y ago

And conversely there are plenty of good employers who don’t require unionization to treat employees well. The point is that these situations are often framed as the angelic unions vs the evil capitalist employer. In reality, there are plenty of bad unions just as there are plenty of bad employers.

brianwawok 5y ago

So, do you know anyone say 20 something and trying to get into the SAG? Dealing with the drama of union vs off union jobs in NYC? It's usually something like: Work the union job for $10 an hour, earn credit towards joining the SAG. In 10 years I can actually join the SAG and make actual decent paying jobs, and actually get health insurance. vs Work a non-union job for $20. It feels very much like a way to exploit people to let them someday get the magic card. The numbers are very approximate, but the sentiment I have gotten from people actually with boots on the ground. Do I want this as a developer? No way!

toby 5y ago

Guilds are a little different from unions in practice. They set minimum standards but there's no group negotiation based on seniority or anything like that. Studios are free to pay some hot rising star 100x as much as the guy who has been a character actor for 30 years as long as he's making the minimum and getting his breaks and meals and stuff. It's also a challenge to get into a guild, SAG has minimum requirements for having already performed. A union is generally just something you have to join when you take a job at a unionized company. This is not a value judgment, just wanted to point out the differences.

bena 5y ago
Why are you making his argument for him? He pointed out that not all unions are the doom and gloom version where you can't carry lightbulbs (seriously people, don't ever use that example, it's right out of the anti-union video, obvious tell) and good people can't get promotions because of blah blah blah. You then responded by saying it doesn't count because it's different. Yeah, that's the point. A "union" isn't a thing like gravity. It doesn't only work one way. It a collection of workers who want to collectively bargain with an employer to bring some balance to the power dynamic between huge companies and individual workers. Whatever rules the union wants to set out are up to them.
- toby 5y ago
  I'm not arguing, if anything I'm agreeing, was just trying to clarify some things.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  Lol not every comment reply has to be an absolute refutation of the parent comment! They were agreeing with the person they were replying to... wow can't have that can we!
- stale2002 5y ago
  The contract provisions described regarding these high end unions are doom and gloom though. Contract provisions that screw over newcomers, and set up additional barriers to entry are not good. I do not want the tech industry to discriminate against new comers, or developers who don't have a CS degree, or H1Bs more than it is already doing so. And that is what those kinds of unions do to the industry. They setup barriers to entry to target these groups.

yibg 5y ago

Everyone points to SAG as an example of a good union. But how many of these are there? If there are dozens of examples of "bad unions" and a single example of a "good union", that doesn't exactly give someone voting to unionize high confidence.

rootsofallevil 5y ago
Talk to people in places like Germany and you might get a different take about bad/good unions
- yibg 5y ago
  This didn't happen in Germany, this happened in the US. For whatever reason unions behave differently here, and it's the union model in the US that people rightfully evaluate against.
toby 5y ago
That's because SAG is a guild, not a union, and it works because every known actor is voluntarily a member, so you can't make a movie without agreeing to their rules.
- athms 5y ago
  SAG-AFTRA meets the definition of a labor union under federal and state law. It negotiates working conditions, compensation, and benefits with production companies and studios. It is treated in the manner as other labor unions such as IATSE, IBEW, and Teamsters.
- labcomputer 5y ago
  That's because true Scotsmen are not allowed to join SAG.

stale2002 5y ago

Even the high end unions have pretty big problems. Things like the actors guild are simple rent seeking at the expense of newcomings. They are setup in a way where only insiders are allowed to get jobs at certain places, and there are large barriers to entry to becoming an insider. If we were to apply this to tech, it would be contract provisions that keep out engineers that dont have degree, or discrimination against H1B immigrants. And I don't want the tech industry to have contractual provisions that discriminate against these groups, and would be willing to spend a huge amount of effort fighting people who want to do that. (And based on comments that I have read on hacker news, there really are a lot of people who want to screw over self-taught developers, or immigrants)

disposekinetics 5y ago
Why would I ever join a union that didn't protect me from rampant undercutting via importing more workers? That is the whole reason I would join a union.
- stale2002 5y ago
  > Why would I ever join a union that didn't protect me from rampant undercutting via importing more workers? I understand that you want to retaliate against immigrants and people from other countries. But if that is your opinion then don't expect anyone who has an H1B visa to ever agree with you. You should probably expect people who don't hate immigrants to fight against your efforts though, and to take actions to sabotage the union. Don't expect to ever get those other people on your side, if your argument is that you just don't want foreign workers to be able to get jobs here.
  - disposekinetics 5y ago
    A union that doesn't protect their members is pretty hopeless.

athms 5y ago

The Producers Guild of America (PGA) is NOT a union, it is a trade association.