4 ms·

I know a number of people in a large teacher's union and the stories indicate the union is bad for both good teachers and students. I've personally seen many gr

I know a number of people in a large teacher's union and the stories indicate the union is bad for both good teachers and students. I've personally seen many great teachers leave for private schools and other public systems. The union rewarded the incompetent and did little for rampant administrator abuse.

dwater 6y ago
I was a public teacher for 9 years, 2 years in a union and 7 years in a right to work state. The union experience was better as an employee. I find it hard to believe great teachers would go to private schools in large numbers as a result of being in a union, private schools generally have lower pay, lower benefits, and lower standards. The one thing you gain going to a private school is freedom to do as you want, and no standardized testing. Anecdotally the people I know who went to private schools had someone else to support them financially and could choose the easiest route available.
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  > I find it hard to believe great teachers would go to private schools in large numbers as a result of being in a union, private schools generally have lower pay, lower benefits, and lower standards. I don't know where you lived, but this is the opposite of the situation in most places. Private schools attract people who will pay private school tuition because they offer higher standards. In my limited experience with private schools, it was relatively easy to poach good teachers away from unionized jobs precisely because the school had freedom to offer them higher wages and better benefits. Many of them were also sick of dealing with the issues that come with unionized labor and union membership.
  - dwater 6y ago
    They have higher standards for decorum and appearance, but not higher academic standards. One of the advantages of private schools is that they are essentially exempt from standards. Their students are generally not required to take standardized tests, and the schools generally are not required to follow prescribed curricula. I agree that private schools generally have a higher standard of cleanliness and facility upkeep. And although the families have to pay more for students to attend compared to (free) public schools, teachers as a broad class are paid less, not more, at private schools. There are numerous reasons for this. For one, a prospective employee has even less leverage than they do when seeking employment at a public school.
  - hypersoar 6y ago
    In 2011-2012, the average pay for a full-time public school teacher was $56,410. For a private school teacher, it was $40,200. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_211.10.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_211.10.a...
    - _-david-_ 6y ago
      It might not be accurate since many religious institutions have schools where nuns, monks, priests, etc work as teachers. They often times do not get paid or make basically minimum wage. Do you have any numbers that take that into account?
shuntress 6y ago
I know a number of people in a large teacher's union and the stories indicate that the union is good for both teachers and students. I've personally seen many great teachers stay in public schools. The union rewarded the competent and pushed back against administrator abuse.
- angry_octet 6y ago
  I find it hard to believe the part where you write "the union rewarded the competent". I've never seen an education union stick up for someone based on competence, it's always connections. Sometimes I've seen them push back against bad management, but it is frightfully rare. Bullying, discrimination, favouritism, giving young/non-clique staff the worst jobs: all good. I don't think public sector unions are very good stewards, partly because everyone is in the union. They push against govt objectives (control wages) and politics (push whatever rhetoric of the day is) and seek to gain public support (teaching/learning is essential for society etc). Unless you're a cog in the union machine, they won't be present except to prevent you being fired or make you work extra hours. This became very evident during the pandemic: unions stuck with (1) better pay, (2) keep leave. While (1) is essential, the real problem was (3) death. But adjusting the school year, virtual teaching, classroom ventilation, support for students: nothing, except opposition. They wanted nothing to change. It was bonkers.

dwater 6y ago

I was a public teacher for 9 years, 2 years in a union and 7 years in a right to work state. The union experience was better as an employee. I find it hard to believe great teachers would go to private schools in large numbers as a result of being in a union, private schools generally have lower pay, lower benefits, and lower standards. The one thing you gain going to a private school is freedom to do as you want, and no standardized testing. Anecdotally the people I know who went to private schools had someone else to support them financially and could choose the easiest route available.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago
> I find it hard to believe great teachers would go to private schools in large numbers as a result of being in a union, private schools generally have lower pay, lower benefits, and lower standards. I don't know where you lived, but this is the opposite of the situation in most places. Private schools attract people who will pay private school tuition because they offer higher standards. In my limited experience with private schools, it was relatively easy to poach good teachers away from unionized jobs precisely because the school had freedom to offer them higher wages and better benefits. Many of them were also sick of dealing with the issues that come with unionized labor and union membership.
- dwater 6y ago
  They have higher standards for decorum and appearance, but not higher academic standards. One of the advantages of private schools is that they are essentially exempt from standards. Their students are generally not required to take standardized tests, and the schools generally are not required to follow prescribed curricula. I agree that private schools generally have a higher standard of cleanliness and facility upkeep. And although the families have to pay more for students to attend compared to (free) public schools, teachers as a broad class are paid less, not more, at private schools. There are numerous reasons for this. For one, a prospective employee has even less leverage than they do when seeking employment at a public school.
- hypersoar 6y ago
  In 2011-2012, the average pay for a full-time public school teacher was $56,410. For a private school teacher, it was $40,200. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_211.10.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_211.10.a...
  - _-david-_ 6y ago
    It might not be accurate since many religious institutions have schools where nuns, monks, priests, etc work as teachers. They often times do not get paid or make basically minimum wage. Do you have any numbers that take that into account?

shuntress 6y ago

I know a number of people in a large teacher's union and the stories indicate that the union is good for both teachers and students. I've personally seen many great teachers stay in public schools. The union rewarded the competent and pushed back against administrator abuse.

angry_octet 6y ago
I find it hard to believe the part where you write "the union rewarded the competent". I've never seen an education union stick up for someone based on competence, it's always connections. Sometimes I've seen them push back against bad management, but it is frightfully rare. Bullying, discrimination, favouritism, giving young/non-clique staff the worst jobs: all good. I don't think public sector unions are very good stewards, partly because everyone is in the union. They push against govt objectives (control wages) and politics (push whatever rhetoric of the day is) and seek to gain public support (teaching/learning is essential for society etc). Unless you're a cog in the union machine, they won't be present except to prevent you being fired or make you work extra hours. This became very evident during the pandemic: unions stuck with (1) better pay, (2) keep leave. While (1) is essential, the real problem was (3) death. But adjusting the school year, virtual teaching, classroom ventilation, support for students: nothing, except opposition. They wanted nothing to change. It was bonkers.