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Good. I have lived in 3 continents and 4 different countries and I have yet to see a union that is not run by and for the lazy and incompetent, ultimately to th

Good. I have lived in 3 continents and 4 different countries and I have yet to see a union that is not run by and for the lazy and incompetent, ultimately to the ruin of all involved. I hear Germany cracked the code on that one, but in the US unions seem to be pretty much like everywhere.

JarlUlvi 6y ago
As a libertarian I am likely biased against the idea of unions due to having heard horror stories. However, all the public sector unions with whom I have collaborated have been rather excellent. Why? They were actually the voices of reason and efficiency when it came to IT change in the workplace. It seemed as though their raison d'etre was maximum effectiveness of employees, and removing impediments. Understanding this, they were able to advocate in a positive manner to represent the working engineer and scientist. Let's not paint all unions with a negative brush.
vb6sp6 6y ago
I have a few German customers and I also get the impression that their unions seem to work. It seems to be a result of multiple factors: 1. "Mitbestimmung" or co-determination. German workers elect the board of directors. 2. Labor reps vote alongside shareholders 3. Laborers in the same strata form "work councils" and choose reps to bring issues to managers or higher up the chain 4. "Betriebsverfassungsgesetz" federal laws giving workers the rights to form these work councils The people i've spoken too (anecdotal, I know) don't seem to have the same hostility to the unions. It is just kinda accepted and "normal" that the union is going to be there so they seem to work with them instead of fighting them at every step.
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  VW TN was offered a works council deal and they still voted it down.
  - vb6sp6 6y ago
    Works council is kinda pointless without the other things
- genericone 6y ago
  Yeah, give the employees some skin in the business, not just in the labor negotiations... Incentivize good union behavior, not adversarial behavior.
  - musingsole 6y ago
    I believe Co-ops are a nature progression to merge the split between business and labor unions.
    - vb6sp6 6y ago
      Unions have been trashed beyond repair in the US. American needs a "free market" solution and I think the next step is for employees to organize and form their own corporations. If a union demands better pay, healthcare, working conditions, they get attacked for be being greedy\lazy\entitled. A corporation that provides great pay, healthcare, and working conditions wins awards for "top 100 places to work".
ur-whale 6y ago
> I have yet to see a union that is not run by and for the lazy and incompetent Exactly what I've observed throughout my career, thank you for putting it so succinctly. You're also missing those for whom the union is a pure political, power-grabbing device.

JarlUlvi 6y ago

As a libertarian I am likely biased against the idea of unions due to having heard horror stories. However, all the public sector unions with whom I have collaborated have been rather excellent. Why? They were actually the voices of reason and efficiency when it came to IT change in the workplace. It seemed as though their raison d'etre was maximum effectiveness of employees, and removing impediments. Understanding this, they were able to advocate in a positive manner to represent the working engineer and scientist. Let's not paint all unions with a negative brush.

vb6sp6 6y ago

I have a few German customers and I also get the impression that their unions seem to work. It seems to be a result of multiple factors: 1. "Mitbestimmung" or co-determination. German workers elect the board of directors. 2. Labor reps vote alongside shareholders 3. Laborers in the same strata form "work councils" and choose reps to bring issues to managers or higher up the chain 4. "Betriebsverfassungsgesetz" federal laws giving workers the rights to form these work councils The people i've spoken too (anecdotal, I know) don't seem to have the same hostility to the unions. It is just kinda accepted and "normal" that the union is going to be there so they seem to work with them instead of fighting them at every step.

selimthegrim 6y ago
VW TN was offered a works council deal and they still voted it down.
- vb6sp6 6y ago
  Works council is kinda pointless without the other things
genericone 6y ago
Yeah, give the employees some skin in the business, not just in the labor negotiations... Incentivize good union behavior, not adversarial behavior.
- musingsole 6y ago
  I believe Co-ops are a nature progression to merge the split between business and labor unions.
  - vb6sp6 6y ago
    Unions have been trashed beyond repair in the US. American needs a "free market" solution and I think the next step is for employees to organize and form their own corporations. If a union demands better pay, healthcare, working conditions, they get attacked for be being greedy\lazy\entitled. A corporation that provides great pay, healthcare, and working conditions wins awards for "top 100 places to work".

ur-whale 6y ago

> I have yet to see a union that is not run by and for the lazy and incompetent Exactly what I've observed throughout my career, thank you for putting it so succinctly. You're also missing those for whom the union is a pure political, power-grabbing device.