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> but xenophobic people really love to talk about it All too often I see this used as the standard for labelling someone a xenophobe and it becomes a classic c

> but xenophobic people really love to talk about it All too often I see this used as the standard for labelling someone a xenophobe and it becomes a classic case of begging the question. Since we all agree it's not xenophobic to speak about it, perhaps it's time we wait for actual xenophobia before making what should be serious accusations?

lazide 6y ago
Since some of the very first discussion of the topic in public was by the president using it as a political football alongside a trade war with China and a nontrivial amount of public fear and aversion to random people that happened to look Chinese, that well is pretty solidly poisoned at this point?
s5300 6y ago
I'm not sure if I'm reading this incorrectly and misinterpreting... But Asian hate crimes are waaay up since the beginning of Covid-19 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56218684 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56218684 Do you not call this xenophobia? It would be my elementary understanding that this rise in hate crime against Asians may be related to the President of the U.S. aggressively referring to the virus as the "china virus" and broadcasting that this was all China's fault during this time.
- kolbe 6y ago
  Causal inference may not be important to media campaigns, but it is to reality. Can you honestly say that you have found causal evidence that people earnestly talking about a Wuhan having a lab leak is the cause of 24 extra hate crimes in a city of 8 million people?
- lurquer 6y ago
  Strange how Asian is equated with Chinese. How insulting. It’s often the typical virtue-signaling liberals who group disparate languages, races, religions, and cultures in one monolithic block. What do you mean by Asian that would encourage one to use the term synonymously with “Chinese”? Are you referring to “people with slanty eyes”? White urban liberals do this a lot... to them, all “brown” people are the same. A person from Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala, etc... they’re all equivalent and exchangeable. Sad to see this same racist mindset used now for all of Asia.
  - crooked-v 6y ago
    > Strange how Asian is equated with Chinese. It's "anti-Asian hate crimes" and not "anti-Chinese hate crimes" because the people being harassed and attacked are from eastern Asian ethnic groups in general, not specifically Chinese ethnic groups.
  - neilparikh 6y ago
    News articles are not equating Chinese and Asian. It seems very obvious to me that those doing racist hate crimes aren't going to ask their victims if they're Chinese or not before attacking them, so you'd see an uptick in anti-Asian hate crimes in general, not just anti-Chinese hate crimes, and so it makes sense to talk about anti-Asian hate crimes as a whole.
    - lurquer 6y ago
      > It seems very obvious to me that those doing racist hate crimes... Who are doing racist hate crimes? There is nothing obvious about it. The media narrative is that Trump’s use of the term “China Virus” or “Kung Flu” has led to attacks on ALL Asians. I’ve never seen any evidence of this. And what is disgusting is assuming any old lady anywhere — be she Japanese, Korean, Filipino, Vietnamese, etc— who get pushed or mugged is the result of “anti-Asian racism” fueled by criticism of China. That somebody would push an old lady because of their dislike of the CCP, is unbelievable enough. But, now I’m supposed to believe some mysterious ‘racists’ are harassing Japanese people because they dislike the CCP... Where’s is the evidence for this ‘obvious’ state of affairs? It’s absurd on its face. Their is more ‘racism’ against Chinese from Vietnamese populations for instance... and vice versa. Ditto for Japanese v. Korean and Chinese v Japanese. The fabled ‘white supremacist’ out there certainly know the difference between the various ethnicities. Your fabled red-neck Bubba knows the difference between Chinese and Vietnamese and the rest... many of these red-necked bubbas come from families that fought in the Korean War, Vietnam war, have been stationed in Japan, and took R&R in Thailand. It seems the only segment of society that lumps them all together are white liberals who blithely assume all “people with slanty eyes” are the same. Just as they do with all “brown” people.
      - 6y ago
guerrilla 6y ago
It's not the worst rule of thumb as long as the social context is taken into account (i.e. it wouldn't be as appropriate here.) Heuristics do save time.
Viliam1234 6y ago
What exactly are the good guys supposed to do in a situation where bad guys enjoy the truth: support the noble lie, or hiss "you are not supposed to talk about this"?
- brigandish 6y ago
  Perhaps not divvy up the world, or people, as "good" and "bad" and instead focus on truth? Or perhaps consider that if truth is good, then more truth is likely to be more good, and good people would (should) embrace truth and bad guys speaking more truth would be better than bad guys using less (as surely that is one way to measure who is bad). Given these options (and I could go on) I'm not sure why a "noble" lie or suppression of speech are the only choices, or better choices.
- dTal 6y ago
  What a jewel of a comment. One could not ask for a more succinct elucidation of the term "culture war". Truth should never be subsidiary to tribal loyalties. Lies are never noble. The world would be a better place if we opted for Option C: embrace the truth. And if you must fight "bad guys", fight what makes them bad instead of gaslighting them.

lazide 6y ago

Since some of the very first discussion of the topic in public was by the president using it as a political football alongside a trade war with China and a nontrivial amount of public fear and aversion to random people that happened to look Chinese, that well is pretty solidly poisoned at this point?

s5300 6y ago

I'm not sure if I'm reading this incorrectly and misinterpreting... But Asian hate crimes are waaay up since the beginning of Covid-19 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56218684 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56218684 Do you not call this xenophobia? It would be my elementary understanding that this rise in hate crime against Asians may be related to the President of the U.S. aggressively referring to the virus as the "china virus" and broadcasting that this was all China's fault during this time.

kolbe 6y ago
Causal inference may not be important to media campaigns, but it is to reality. Can you honestly say that you have found causal evidence that people earnestly talking about a Wuhan having a lab leak is the cause of 24 extra hate crimes in a city of 8 million people?
lurquer 6y ago
Strange how Asian is equated with Chinese. How insulting. It’s often the typical virtue-signaling liberals who group disparate languages, races, religions, and cultures in one monolithic block. What do you mean by Asian that would encourage one to use the term synonymously with “Chinese”? Are you referring to “people with slanty eyes”? White urban liberals do this a lot... to them, all “brown” people are the same. A person from Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala, etc... they’re all equivalent and exchangeable. Sad to see this same racist mindset used now for all of Asia.
- crooked-v 6y ago
  > Strange how Asian is equated with Chinese. It's "anti-Asian hate crimes" and not "anti-Chinese hate crimes" because the people being harassed and attacked are from eastern Asian ethnic groups in general, not specifically Chinese ethnic groups.
- neilparikh 6y ago
  News articles are not equating Chinese and Asian. It seems very obvious to me that those doing racist hate crimes aren't going to ask their victims if they're Chinese or not before attacking them, so you'd see an uptick in anti-Asian hate crimes in general, not just anti-Chinese hate crimes, and so it makes sense to talk about anti-Asian hate crimes as a whole.
  - lurquer 6y ago
    > It seems very obvious to me that those doing racist hate crimes... Who are doing racist hate crimes? There is nothing obvious about it. The media narrative is that Trump’s use of the term “China Virus” or “Kung Flu” has led to attacks on ALL Asians. I’ve never seen any evidence of this. And what is disgusting is assuming any old lady anywhere — be she Japanese, Korean, Filipino, Vietnamese, etc— who get pushed or mugged is the result of “anti-Asian racism” fueled by criticism of China. That somebody would push an old lady because of their dislike of the CCP, is unbelievable enough. But, now I’m supposed to believe some mysterious ‘racists’ are harassing Japanese people because they dislike the CCP... Where’s is the evidence for this ‘obvious’ state of affairs? It’s absurd on its face. Their is more ‘racism’ against Chinese from Vietnamese populations for instance... and vice versa. Ditto for Japanese v. Korean and Chinese v Japanese. The fabled ‘white supremacist’ out there certainly know the difference between the various ethnicities. Your fabled red-neck Bubba knows the difference between Chinese and Vietnamese and the rest... many of these red-necked bubbas come from families that fought in the Korean War, Vietnam war, have been stationed in Japan, and took R&R in Thailand. It seems the only segment of society that lumps them all together are white liberals who blithely assume all “people with slanty eyes” are the same. Just as they do with all “brown” people.
    - 6y ago

guerrilla 6y ago

It's not the worst rule of thumb as long as the social context is taken into account (i.e. it wouldn't be as appropriate here.) Heuristics do save time.

Viliam1234 6y ago

What exactly are the good guys supposed to do in a situation where bad guys enjoy the truth: support the noble lie, or hiss "you are not supposed to talk about this"?

brigandish 6y ago
Perhaps not divvy up the world, or people, as "good" and "bad" and instead focus on truth? Or perhaps consider that if truth is good, then more truth is likely to be more good, and good people would (should) embrace truth and bad guys speaking more truth would be better than bad guys using less (as surely that is one way to measure who is bad). Given these options (and I could go on) I'm not sure why a "noble" lie or suppression of speech are the only choices, or better choices.
dTal 6y ago
What a jewel of a comment. One could not ask for a more succinct elucidation of the term "culture war". Truth should never be subsidiary to tribal loyalties. Lies are never noble. The world would be a better place if we opted for Option C: embrace the truth. And if you must fight "bad guys", fight what makes them bad instead of gaslighting them.