5 ms·

Most of the folks who vote aren't really the type to sit down and think long-term. $50/month in dues getting them +$2-3k more annually every two years? They won

Most of the folks who vote aren't really the type to sit down and think long-term. $50/month in dues getting them +$2-3k more annually every two years? They won't do the math and see they'd make a net profit of whatever that annual income increase is minus $600. There was some great video floating around recently of a forklift operator or something who explained what his union dues got him and he was so informed and unphased by the dues he was paying.

dylan604 6y ago
Right up until that new raise puts you in the lowest tier of the next tax bracket so that you suddenly make less by making more.
- RankingMember 6y ago
  That's not how marginal tax rates work, though- You get taxed higher on the amount above the threshold, not on the entire amount.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    If you're below the poverty line, it's possible to make less by making more by disqualifying yourself for public aid. But if the Amazon workers are in that situation then we would need to expand this conversation anyway.
    - RankingMember 6y ago
      Agreed. My comment regards income tax brackets, not public aid.
- anotherman554 6y ago
  That's not how tax brackets work. You never make "less" when you make more money.
  - dylan604 6y ago
    Your take home is what most people consider "making" even they know their actual salary is what they "make". I made a higher salary working in a state with state income taxes. Took a pay cut to move to a state without state income taxes. My take home went up (obviously). So I "made" more in take home by "making" less.
    - hobs 6y ago
      And in this case your take home would go up 100% of the time you got a raise - only the raise amount itself would decrease proportionally to your increased income.
    - InitialLastName 6y ago
      You changed what tax rules applied to you by moving, and thus your tax situation changed. The point remains: under normal income circumstances (i.e. not related to welfare or equity), there is no way for you to get a raise in your real income and have your take home income decrease due to your federal income tax bracket.
- gizmo385 6y ago
  That's not at all how our tax system works. Progressive tax brackets only tax you at the new rate on the money that you've made within that tax bracket. Getting into a higher tax bracket does not result in you making less money. Ever.
- david-w 6y ago
  That’s a common misconception in 99% of cases, save for some welfare cliffs for really low earners. Tax brackets are graduated tiers, so not everything is taxed at the same rate. https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/071114/can-moving-higher-tax-bracket-cause-me-have-lower-net-income.asp https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/071114/can-moving-h...
- didgeoridoo 6y ago
  That’s not how tax brackets work. It is, unfortunately, how some welfare programs work. This results in benefits “cliffs” where you can lose thousands of dollars of welfare for earning a single additional dollar. If those welfare payments are how you keep a roof over your head, it’s pretty easy to get trapped right below the ceiling. That said, you are unlikely to be eligible for these benefits at all if you are a full-time warehouse employee. They are aimed mostly at those in genuine poverty.
- mint2 6y ago
  That. Is. Not. How. Tax. Brackets. Work. The. Higher. Rate. Only. Applies. To. The. Income. Amount. Extra. Above. The. Prior. Tax. Rate. Bracket. Yes the emphasis style here is annoying but it’s such a widespread and damaging misconception
- rmah 6y ago
  This never happens in the USA because this is not how tax brackets work. When you hit the next tax bracket, you only pay the higher rate on the income over the bracket threshold. Any income under it pays the lower bracket(s) rates.
ThrowawayR2 6y ago
> "...why you would vote against your own collective interest ..." > "...Most of the folks who vote aren't really the type to sit down and think long-term..." Why do people call others dumb (and let's not kid ourselves, that's just what these phrases are a cultured, genteel way of saying) and then are surprised when said others don't vote for the causes they believe in? Don't they realize that casting aspersions on the intelligence of others to their faces is "against their own collective interest"? If you want people to vote for your causes, work harder to prove that it benefits them instead of denigrating them.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- kadomony 6y ago
  I don't think you'll find many of those Amazon warehouse workers on this site. Also, it's not said with malice, so don't reach for a fight. Most of these workers slave for long hours. And then they work another job on top of it. And then they wonder why they STILL aren't making enough to pay TODAY's bills. Their mindset is myopic because they live paycheck to paycheck. You tell them they're losing MORE money out of each paycheck, that suddenly makes them worry exponentially more. I'm friends with people living this dilemma monthly. They don't have the luxury to think what the long-term return on investment is. And to say they're under-educated isn't calling them dumb. The ones I know are high school dropouts/graduates only. High school doesn't teach you personal finance the way a finance course at a college might introduce you to it. It's just statistical correlation.
- trackmenot 6y ago
  > Why do people call others dumb (and let's not kid ourselves, that's just what these phrases are a cultured, genteel way of saying) and then are surprised when said others don't vote for the causes they believe in? How does calling people dumb affect the way they vote? In fact, if me and others calling people who vote against unionization dumb makes them more likely to vote against unionization, it clearly means that they are not primarily considering their self-interest, since whatever I and other leftists say or think is completely irrelevant. If I say "you're an idiot for voting for Trump" and that makes you more likely to vote for Trump, then, I'm sorry to say, you proved my point.

dylan604 6y ago

Right up until that new raise puts you in the lowest tier of the next tax bracket so that you suddenly make less by making more.

RankingMember 6y ago
That's not how marginal tax rates work, though- You get taxed higher on the amount above the threshold, not on the entire amount.
- hinkley 6y ago
  If you're below the poverty line, it's possible to make less by making more by disqualifying yourself for public aid. But if the Amazon workers are in that situation then we would need to expand this conversation anyway.
  - RankingMember 6y ago
    Agreed. My comment regards income tax brackets, not public aid.
anotherman554 6y ago
That's not how tax brackets work. You never make "less" when you make more money.
- dylan604 6y ago
  Your take home is what most people consider "making" even they know their actual salary is what they "make". I made a higher salary working in a state with state income taxes. Took a pay cut to move to a state without state income taxes. My take home went up (obviously). So I "made" more in take home by "making" less.
  - hobs 6y ago
    And in this case your take home would go up 100% of the time you got a raise - only the raise amount itself would decrease proportionally to your increased income.
  - InitialLastName 6y ago
    You changed what tax rules applied to you by moving, and thus your tax situation changed. The point remains: under normal income circumstances (i.e. not related to welfare or equity), there is no way for you to get a raise in your real income and have your take home income decrease due to your federal income tax bracket.
gizmo385 6y ago
That's not at all how our tax system works. Progressive tax brackets only tax you at the new rate on the money that you've made within that tax bracket. Getting into a higher tax bracket does not result in you making less money. Ever.
david-w 6y ago
That’s a common misconception in 99% of cases, save for some welfare cliffs for really low earners. Tax brackets are graduated tiers, so not everything is taxed at the same rate. https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/071114/can-moving-higher-tax-bracket-cause-me-have-lower-net-income.asp https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/071114/can-moving-h...
didgeoridoo 6y ago
That’s not how tax brackets work. It is, unfortunately, how some welfare programs work. This results in benefits “cliffs” where you can lose thousands of dollars of welfare for earning a single additional dollar. If those welfare payments are how you keep a roof over your head, it’s pretty easy to get trapped right below the ceiling. That said, you are unlikely to be eligible for these benefits at all if you are a full-time warehouse employee. They are aimed mostly at those in genuine poverty.
mint2 6y ago
That. Is. Not. How. Tax. Brackets. Work. The. Higher. Rate. Only. Applies. To. The. Income. Amount. Extra. Above. The. Prior. Tax. Rate. Bracket. Yes the emphasis style here is annoying but it’s such a widespread and damaging misconception
rmah 6y ago
This never happens in the USA because this is not how tax brackets work. When you hit the next tax bracket, you only pay the higher rate on the income over the bracket threshold. Any income under it pays the lower bracket(s) rates.

ThrowawayR2 6y ago

> "...why you would vote against your own collective interest ..." > "...Most of the folks who vote aren't really the type to sit down and think long-term..." Why do people call others dumb (and let's not kid ourselves, that's just what these phrases are a cultured, genteel way of saying) and then are surprised when said others don't vote for the causes they believe in? Don't they realize that casting aspersions on the intelligence of others to their faces is "against their own collective interest"? If you want people to vote for your causes, work harder to prove that it benefits them instead of denigrating them.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
kadomony 6y ago
I don't think you'll find many of those Amazon warehouse workers on this site. Also, it's not said with malice, so don't reach for a fight. Most of these workers slave for long hours. And then they work another job on top of it. And then they wonder why they STILL aren't making enough to pay TODAY's bills. Their mindset is myopic because they live paycheck to paycheck. You tell them they're losing MORE money out of each paycheck, that suddenly makes them worry exponentially more. I'm friends with people living this dilemma monthly. They don't have the luxury to think what the long-term return on investment is. And to say they're under-educated isn't calling them dumb. The ones I know are high school dropouts/graduates only. High school doesn't teach you personal finance the way a finance course at a college might introduce you to it. It's just statistical correlation.
trackmenot 6y ago
> Why do people call others dumb (and let's not kid ourselves, that's just what these phrases are a cultured, genteel way of saying) and then are surprised when said others don't vote for the causes they believe in? How does calling people dumb affect the way they vote? In fact, if me and others calling people who vote against unionization dumb makes them more likely to vote against unionization, it clearly means that they are not primarily considering their self-interest, since whatever I and other leftists say or think is completely irrelevant. If I say "you're an idiot for voting for Trump" and that makes you more likely to vote for Trump, then, I'm sorry to say, you proved my point.