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> most people no longer celebrate Christmas, don't speak your language, and don't work I find this the most alarming part of what Europe is doing. In the USA t

> most people no longer celebrate Christmas, don't speak your language, and don't work I find this the most alarming part of what Europe is doing. In the USA they had a welfare system back in the 1960s that many saw as actively discouraged employment and dual parent households. These policies were meant to help American Blacks recover from centuries of discrimination. But the unfortunate part is that it just ended up creating permanent ghetto subcultures of culturally ingrained poverty, crime, and government dependency.

vkou 6y ago
> But the unfortunate part is that it just ended up creating permanent ghetto subcultures of culturally ingrained poverty, crime, and government dependency. Are you sure it was the welfare state that created it, and not continued discrimination, redlining, and systemic racism? I don't believe all the people and organizations carrying out those practices just shriveled up and died as soon as the CRA was passed. You're looking at wet streets, and deducing that they obviously caused rain.
- barbacoa 6y ago
  Modern day African immigrants generally as a group don't suffer the same issues that afflict American Blacks. Racism is a problem that has existed and probably always will, but I don't think it is appropriate to blame racism for of all of modern day ills.
  - vkou 6y ago
    Modern day African immigrants tend to be college-educated professionals. It's an incredibly slanted sample set.
542354234235 6y ago
>In the USA they had a welfare system back in the 1960s that many saw as actively discouraged employment and dual parent households. The US had a welfare system since the 30s, and it primarily benefited whites. Blacks were systematically discriminated against, denied benefits, and kicked off benefits where whites were not. > “From the early history of the country’s welfare programs, allowing local discretion as to who can receive benefits has continually led to African American families receiving less or getting tossed off the rolls altogether. When mothers’ pensions, the precursor to welfare, were launched in the early 20th century, they mostly went to white women. Case workers had a fair amount of discretion in who received these pensions, and they believed African American women should work—something they tended to believe was beneath white women. They regularly denied African American women pensions” [1] > “The ADC was an extension of the state-operated mothers’ pension programs, where white widows were the primary beneficiaries. The criteria for eligibility and need were state-determined, so blacks continued to be barred from full participation because the country operated under the “separate but equal” doctrine adopted by the Supreme Court in 1896.” [2] When more blacks were able to enroll in programs, due to LBJ’s war on poverty and the civil rights movement, attitudes on welfare began to change. Then Reagan played on those racial attitudes and shaped the modern conception of the lazy black welfare queen ghetto culture. > “The term “welfare” had a positive connotation among Americans before the 1960s, according to Soss, but as the program became more diverse, stereotypes about “freeloaders” started to emerge.” [1] >” During [the Reagan administration], data from public polls indicate that a growing percentage of Americans believed that slackness and lack of motivation to work were the main causes of poverty” [3] > “This anti-welfare-ideology manifested itself in an altered perception of welfare recipients and a changed view on poverty. The poor were no longer regarded as victims of the economic system… Blaming the poor for their life situation is nothing new, but within the Reagan years stigmatization intensified drastically. Besides emphasizing dependency over poverty, the government allowed the term welfare to be further labeled by race and gender. Although welfare has always been associated with these terms, the administration’s welfare-state-rhetoric involved severe generalizations and moralistic accusations. Additionally, the promotion of negative stereotypes incorporated the distinction between those in need of protection, the undeserving poor, and the deserving poor, including “welfare queens” and “freeloaders”. The “truly needy” considered as deserving assistance, are, inter alia, the elderly or disabled, so to speak groups who should not be expected to work.” [3] > These policies were meant to help American Blacks recover from centuries of discrimination. But the unfortunate part is that it just ended up creating permanent ghetto subcultures of culturally ingrained poverty, crime, and government dependency. There is little to no data indicating welfare is responsible for black poverty. There is lots of data that hundreds of years of slavery, followed by a hundred years of Jim Crow, followed by redlining [4], followed by using highway construction, urban planning, and eminent domain to destroy black communities [5], followed by the war on drugs created expressly so Nixon could target black people [6], and hundreds of other policies and actions targeting black people and black communities are responsible for black poverty. > “We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did" [6] [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/06/race-safety-net-welfare/529203/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/06/race-sa... [2] https://apnews.com/article/fbd5d3c83e3243e9b03e46d7cb842eaa https://apnews.com/article/fbd5d3c83e3243e9b03e46d7cb842eaa [3] https://www.grin.com/document/519964 https://www.grin.com/document/519964 [4] https://www.npr.org/2017/05/03/526655831/a-forgotten-history-of-how-the-u-s-government-segregated-america https://www.npr.org/2017/05/03/526655831/a-forgotten-history... [5] https://www.itdp.org/2021/03/10/highways-and-zoning-tools-of-racist-policy/ https://www.itdp.org/2021/03/10/highways-and-zoning-tools-of... [6] https://www.businessinsider.com/nixon-adviser-ehrlichman-anti-left-anti-black-war-on-drugs-2019-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/nixon-adviser-ehrlichman-ant...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  I honestly don't have either the time or the will to look into this subject now, but having read some of Thomas Sowell's books (and listened to some conversations on YouTube), I remember reading statistics proving the opposite. Namely that black poverty was already decreasing before the 1960s and that the progress was slowed down by the welfare policies. Those years also brought the destruction of family (increase of single parent household supported by welfare) which pushed a generation of unstable kids into poverty.
  - 542354234235 5y ago
    > black poverty was already decreasing before the 1960s All poverty was decreasing before the 60s. Black poverty was just decreasing much more slowly than whites. So let’s talk about the times leading up to the 60s. In 1947, half (49%) of all college students were military veterans, going to school on their GI Bills ($137 billion government money spent in today’s dollars). However since blacks were straight up banned from southern universities, and effectively banned from northern ones, of the few black veterans able to collect at all, 95% ended up in unaccredited or underfunded black universities, while whites filled the ivy league. Since being an alumni gives your children and grandchildren preference, whites are still directly benefiting while blacks were shut out. By 1955, nearly a third of all post war home loans had been GI bill loans ($316 billion in todays dollars). However, since blacks were banned from buying homes in white neighborhoods (otherwise known as any desirable neighborhood) and banks would just deny black loans in black neighborhoods, they were unable to buy homes, and the few homes they were able to buy were in the least desirable areas. In places where black veterans made up almost 40% of the veteran population, 99% of approved GI home loans still went to whites. The overall homeownership gap between whites and blacks doubled from pre to post-WWII. Since home values skyrocketed in value over the next several decades, homeownership and education are the cornerstones of wealth generation and intergenerational wealth, and a college leads to much higher lifetime earnings, is it any surprise that white wealth boomed along with the post-WWII economy and black wealth didn’t? Is it any wonder that the children of the now financially secure post-WWII white families also did well and benefited from their preferential legacy college admissions and financial freedom and security of their family? The US government handed out $450 billion in today’s money, over 95% going to whites, allowing them to own homes and get valuable educations during the biggest economic boom in the country’s history. So no, black poverty wasn’t slowed by welfare, it was just that white poverty was massively cut (and white intergenerational wealth increased) with home ownership and education, while being denied to blacks. While welfare is, and was, not perfect, it is not the primary driver or cause of black inequality in the US. > Thomas Sowell's books (and listened to some conversations on YouTube), I remember reading statistics proving the opposite. Tomas Sowell is a perfect example of the phrase “data without context is meaningless”, where he basically blames violent “ghetto culture” caused by liberal welfare and public housing, while ignoring actual economic activities going on. Things like the massive amount of urban decline (or urban decay) that has happened across the US in the last 50 years. Something that has economically disadvantaged and trapped people of all races, but blacks most of all due to the redlining and white flight to the newly built suburbs in the 50s and 60s (that blacks weren’t allowed to buy). The massive drug war that directly targeted black individuals and neighborhoods, both by accident and by design, and the subsequent explosion of imprisoned blacks. Funny how drug use rates between whites and blacks are basically the same, but blacks are 4-6 times more likely to be arrested, convicted, and have longer prison times for drug crimes. Even what I have talked about is only one part of the picture, but Sowell bends over backwards blame everything on welfare making blacks violent and lazy.

vkou 6y ago

> But the unfortunate part is that it just ended up creating permanent ghetto subcultures of culturally ingrained poverty, crime, and government dependency. Are you sure it was the welfare state that created it, and not continued discrimination, redlining, and systemic racism? I don't believe all the people and organizations carrying out those practices just shriveled up and died as soon as the CRA was passed. You're looking at wet streets, and deducing that they obviously caused rain.

barbacoa 6y ago
Modern day African immigrants generally as a group don't suffer the same issues that afflict American Blacks. Racism is a problem that has existed and probably always will, but I don't think it is appropriate to blame racism for of all of modern day ills.
- vkou 6y ago
  Modern day African immigrants tend to be college-educated professionals. It's an incredibly slanted sample set.

542354234235 6y ago

>In the USA they had a welfare system back in the 1960s that many saw as actively discouraged employment and dual parent households. The US had a welfare system since the 30s, and it primarily benefited whites. Blacks were systematically discriminated against, denied benefits, and kicked off benefits where whites were not. > “From the early history of the country’s welfare programs, allowing local discretion as to who can receive benefits has continually led to African American families receiving less or getting tossed off the rolls altogether. When mothers’ pensions, the precursor to welfare, were launched in the early 20th century, they mostly went to white women. Case workers had a fair amount of discretion in who received these pensions, and they believed African American women should work—something they tended to believe was beneath white women. They regularly denied African American women pensions” [1] > “The ADC was an extension of the state-operated mothers’ pension programs, where white widows were the primary beneficiaries. The criteria for eligibility and need were state-determined, so blacks continued to be barred from full participation because the country operated under the “separate but equal” doctrine adopted by the Supreme Court in 1896.” [2] When more blacks were able to enroll in programs, due to LBJ’s war on poverty and the civil rights movement, attitudes on welfare began to change. Then Reagan played on those racial attitudes and shaped the modern conception of the lazy black welfare queen ghetto culture. > “The term “welfare” had a positive connotation among Americans before the 1960s, according to Soss, but as the program became more diverse, stereotypes about “freeloaders” started to emerge.” [1] >” During [the Reagan administration], data from public polls indicate that a growing percentage of Americans believed that slackness and lack of motivation to work were the main causes of poverty” [3] > “This anti-welfare-ideology manifested itself in an altered perception of welfare recipients and a changed view on poverty. The poor were no longer regarded as victims of the economic system… Blaming the poor for their life situation is nothing new, but within the Reagan years stigmatization intensified drastically. Besides emphasizing dependency over poverty, the government allowed the term welfare to be further labeled by race and gender. Although welfare has always been associated with these terms, the administration’s welfare-state-rhetoric involved severe generalizations and moralistic accusations. Additionally, the promotion of negative stereotypes incorporated the distinction between those in need of protection, the undeserving poor, and the deserving poor, including “welfare queens” and “freeloaders”. The “truly needy” considered as deserving assistance, are, inter alia, the elderly or disabled, so to speak groups who should not be expected to work.” [3] > These policies were meant to help American Blacks recover from centuries of discrimination. But the unfortunate part is that it just ended up creating permanent ghetto subcultures of culturally ingrained poverty, crime, and government dependency. There is little to no data indicating welfare is responsible for black poverty. There is lots of data that hundreds of years of slavery, followed by a hundred years of Jim Crow, followed by redlining [4], followed by using highway construction, urban planning, and eminent domain to destroy black communities [5], followed by the war on drugs created expressly so Nixon could target black people [6], and hundreds of other policies and actions targeting black people and black communities are responsible for black poverty. > “We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did" [6] [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/06/race-safety-net-welfare/529203/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/06/race-sa... [2] https://apnews.com/article/fbd5d3c83e3243e9b03e46d7cb842eaa https://apnews.com/article/fbd5d3c83e3243e9b03e46d7cb842eaa [3] https://www.grin.com/document/519964 https://www.grin.com/document/519964 [4] https://www.npr.org/2017/05/03/526655831/a-forgotten-history-of-how-the-u-s-government-segregated-america https://www.npr.org/2017/05/03/526655831/a-forgotten-history... [5] https://www.itdp.org/2021/03/10/highways-and-zoning-tools-of-racist-policy/ https://www.itdp.org/2021/03/10/highways-and-zoning-tools-of... [6] https://www.businessinsider.com/nixon-adviser-ehrlichman-anti-left-anti-black-war-on-drugs-2019-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/nixon-adviser-ehrlichman-ant...

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jokethrowaway 6y ago
I honestly don't have either the time or the will to look into this subject now, but having read some of Thomas Sowell's books (and listened to some conversations on YouTube), I remember reading statistics proving the opposite. Namely that black poverty was already decreasing before the 1960s and that the progress was slowed down by the welfare policies. Those years also brought the destruction of family (increase of single parent household supported by welfare) which pushed a generation of unstable kids into poverty.
- 542354234235 5y ago
  > black poverty was already decreasing before the 1960s All poverty was decreasing before the 60s. Black poverty was just decreasing much more slowly than whites. So let’s talk about the times leading up to the 60s. In 1947, half (49%) of all college students were military veterans, going to school on their GI Bills ($137 billion government money spent in today’s dollars). However since blacks were straight up banned from southern universities, and effectively banned from northern ones, of the few black veterans able to collect at all, 95% ended up in unaccredited or underfunded black universities, while whites filled the ivy league. Since being an alumni gives your children and grandchildren preference, whites are still directly benefiting while blacks were shut out. By 1955, nearly a third of all post war home loans had been GI bill loans ($316 billion in todays dollars). However, since blacks were banned from buying homes in white neighborhoods (otherwise known as any desirable neighborhood) and banks would just deny black loans in black neighborhoods, they were unable to buy homes, and the few homes they were able to buy were in the least desirable areas. In places where black veterans made up almost 40% of the veteran population, 99% of approved GI home loans still went to whites. The overall homeownership gap between whites and blacks doubled from pre to post-WWII. Since home values skyrocketed in value over the next several decades, homeownership and education are the cornerstones of wealth generation and intergenerational wealth, and a college leads to much higher lifetime earnings, is it any surprise that white wealth boomed along with the post-WWII economy and black wealth didn’t? Is it any wonder that the children of the now financially secure post-WWII white families also did well and benefited from their preferential legacy college admissions and financial freedom and security of their family? The US government handed out $450 billion in today’s money, over 95% going to whites, allowing them to own homes and get valuable educations during the biggest economic boom in the country’s history. So no, black poverty wasn’t slowed by welfare, it was just that white poverty was massively cut (and white intergenerational wealth increased) with home ownership and education, while being denied to blacks. While welfare is, and was, not perfect, it is not the primary driver or cause of black inequality in the US. > Thomas Sowell's books (and listened to some conversations on YouTube), I remember reading statistics proving the opposite. Tomas Sowell is a perfect example of the phrase “data without context is meaningless”, where he basically blames violent “ghetto culture” caused by liberal welfare and public housing, while ignoring actual economic activities going on. Things like the massive amount of urban decline (or urban decay) that has happened across the US in the last 50 years. Something that has economically disadvantaged and trapped people of all races, but blacks most of all due to the redlining and white flight to the newly built suburbs in the 50s and 60s (that blacks weren’t allowed to buy). The massive drug war that directly targeted black individuals and neighborhoods, both by accident and by design, and the subsequent explosion of imprisoned blacks. Funny how drug use rates between whites and blacks are basically the same, but blacks are 4-6 times more likely to be arrested, convicted, and have longer prison times for drug crimes. Even what I have talked about is only one part of the picture, but Sowell bends over backwards blame everything on welfare making blacks violent and lazy.