4 ms·

Don’t you think the reason why most Danes are against nonwestern immigration because they don’t want to go towards being an ethnic minority, like Swedes are in

Don’t you think the reason why most Danes are against nonwestern immigration because they don’t want to go towards being an ethnic minority, like Swedes are in Malmö just across the bridge?

kypro 6y ago
It's different in Europe, here natives who express concern over the preservation of their heritage, culture or don't wish to be a minority in their ethnic homeland are generally seen as racist. In US (and elsewhere in the world) it seems to be more accepted that natives deserve special protections and privileges. I have family who live in an area which over the last few decades has become majority immigrant (as in most people from the area weren't born in Britain) and overwhelmingly non-British (75%+, if I remember correctly). Crime has become extremely bad and my elderly family feel culturally isolated as one of the few non-muslim, British residents left on their council block. I honestly don't understand what people mean about immigration not affecting normal people. I can only assume they're just talking about the middle-class educated working immigrants who speak English -- you know, the kind of immigrant the average middle class person associates with. Presumably they don't live in a flat where most people no longer celebrate Christmas, don't speak your language, and don't work. I have female family members from that area who have been groomed, my own GF was sexually abused and accused of being a "white-who*e" several times. If immigration isn't affecting you personally, that's great. Now I'm in a middle-class area it's not something I worry about much anymore either, but I urge people to try living in these majority areas for a bit if they believe mass-non-western-immigration into Europe is no problem.
- barbacoa 6y ago
  > most people no longer celebrate Christmas, don't speak your language, and don't work I find this the most alarming part of what Europe is doing. In the USA they had a welfare system back in the 1960s that many saw as actively discouraged employment and dual parent households. These policies were meant to help American Blacks recover from centuries of discrimination. But the unfortunate part is that it just ended up creating permanent ghetto subcultures of culturally ingrained poverty, crime, and government dependency.
  - vkou 6y ago
    > But the unfortunate part is that it just ended up creating permanent ghetto subcultures of culturally ingrained poverty, crime, and government dependency. Are you sure it was the welfare state that created it, and not continued discrimination, redlining, and systemic racism? I don't believe all the people and organizations carrying out those practices just shriveled up and died as soon as the CRA was passed. You're looking at wet streets, and deducing that they obviously caused rain.
    - barbacoa 6y ago
      Modern day African immigrants generally as a group don't suffer the same issues that afflict American Blacks. Racism is a problem that has existed and probably always will, but I don't think it is appropriate to blame racism for of all of modern day ills.
      - vkou 6y ago
        Modern day African immigrants tend to be college-educated professionals. It's an incredibly slanted sample set.
  - 542354234235 6y ago
    >In the USA they had a welfare system back in the 1960s that many saw as actively discouraged employment and dual parent households. The US had a welfare system since the 30s, and it primarily benefited whites. Blacks were systematically discriminated against, denied benefits, and kicked off benefits where whites were not. > “From the early history of the country’s welfare programs, allowing local discretion as to who can receive benefits has continually led to African American families receiving less or getting tossed off the rolls altogether. When mothers’ pensions, the precursor to welfare, were launched in the early 20th century, they mostly went to white women. Case workers had a fair amount of discretion in who received these pensions, and they believed African American women should work—something they tended to believe was beneath white women. They regularly denied African American women pensions” [1] > “The ADC was an extension of the state-operated mothers’ pension programs, where white widows were the primary beneficiaries. The criteria for eligibility and need were state-determined, so blacks continued to be barred from full participation because the country operated under the “separate but equal” doctrine adopted by the Supreme Court in 1896.” [2] When more blacks were able to enroll in programs, due to LBJ’s war on poverty and the civil rights movement, attitudes on welfare began to change. Then Reagan played on those racial attitudes and shaped the modern conception of the lazy black welfare queen ghetto culture. > “The term “welfare” had a positive connotation among Americans before the 1960s, according to Soss, but as the program became more diverse, stereotypes about “freeloaders” started to emerge.” [1] >” During [the Reagan administration], data from public polls indicate that a growing percentage of Americans believed that slackness and lack of motivation to work were the main causes of poverty” [3] > “This anti-welfare-ideology manifested itself in an altered perception of welfare recipients and a changed view on poverty. The poor were no longer regarded as victims of the economic system… Blaming the poor for their life situation is nothing new, but within the Reagan years stigmatization intensified drastically. Besides emphasizing dependency over poverty, the government allowed the term welfare to be further labeled by race and gender. Although welfare has always been associated with these terms, the administration’s welfare-state-rhetoric involved severe generalizations and moralistic accusations. Additionally, the promotion of negative stereotypes incorporated the distinction between those in need of protection, the undeserving poor, and the deserving poor, including “welfare queens” and “freeloaders”. The “truly needy” considered as deserving assistance, are, inter alia, the elderly or disabled, so to speak groups who should not be expected to work.” [3] > These policies were meant to help American Blacks recover from centuries of discrimination. But the unfortunate part is that it just ended up creating permanent ghetto subcultures of culturally ingrained poverty, crime, and government dependency. There is little to no data indicating welfare is responsible for black poverty. There is lots of data that hundreds of years of slavery, followed by a hundred years of Jim Crow, followed by redlining [4], followed by using highway construction, urban planning, and eminent domain to destroy black communities [5], followed by the war on drugs created expressly so Nixon could target black people [6], and hundreds of other policies and actions targeting black people and black communities are responsible for black poverty. > “We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did" [6] [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/06/race-safety-net-welfare/529203/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/06/race-sa... [2] https://apnews.com/article/fbd5d3c83e3243e9b03e46d7cb842eaa https://apnews.com/article/fbd5d3c83e3243e9b03e46d7cb842eaa [3] https://www.grin.com/document/519964 https://www.grin.com/document/519964 [4] https://www.npr.org/2017/05/03/526655831/a-forgotten-history-of-how-the-u-s-government-segregated-america https://www.npr.org/2017/05/03/526655831/a-forgotten-history... [5] https://www.itdp.org/2021/03/10/highways-and-zoning-tools-of-racist-policy/ https://www.itdp.org/2021/03/10/highways-and-zoning-tools-of... [6] https://www.businessinsider.com/nixon-adviser-ehrlichman-anti-left-anti-black-war-on-drugs-2019-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/nixon-adviser-ehrlichman-ant...
- tasogare 6y ago
  > In US (and elsewhere in the world) it seems to be more accepted that natives deserve special protections and privileges. Hence the reservations I guess. Very "privileged"... I agree with the rest of your post though. Actually right now in France, since immigration is starting to hurt some of the classes that traditionally promoted it (teachers with the beheading affair, politicians losing against ethnic lists in some cities, journalists being aggressed, one in coma) the public discourse is slowly changing... a little. When everyone, up to the president and people in the parliament will be negatively affected, things will change fast. Until then people having legit complains will be labeled racists.
- 542354234235 6y ago
  > In US (and elsewhere in the world) it seems to be more accepted that natives deserve special protections and privileges. It isn’t more accepted, it is a different situation where these natives were systematically wiped out and almost completely destroyed entirely. They are given special protections now (not privileges) because they are still feeling the very real effects of active cultural destruction, forced sterilizations, children kidnapped and put into “reeducation camps”, etc. The British government is not banning speaking English or forcing children to attend Islamic schools or banning white Britons from owning property. > I have family who live in an area which over the last few decades has become majority immigrant It sounds like what you mean is the neighborhood has become majority poor. The low-income immigrants moving in were likely an effect of, not a cause of, the neighborhood’s economic decline. Lack of economic opportunity is strongly correlated with crime, immigration status is not. > Now I'm in a middle-class area it's not something I worry about much anymore As I suspected. You should probably look into what city planning policies, or lack thereof, and other economic factors are allowing this kind of neighborhood disinvestment, and not blame the low income people who may or may not be immigrants that move to the housing that they can afford.
- papaf 6y ago
  Now I'm in a middle-class area it's not something I worry about much anymore either, but I urge people to try living in these majority areas for a bit if they believe mass-non-western-immigration into Europe is no problem. I also grew up in Britain and I grew up on a road where there were only 2 or 3 white families and there was a Mosque. I went to a primary school were the majority of kids were non-white. Your description of immigration does not match my experience. Presumably they don't live in a flat where most people no longer celebrate Christmas, don't speak your language, and don't work. This is an inaccurate racist stereotype. My muslim neighbours bought me a Christmas present, spoke English and worked.
  - medicineman 6y ago
    Glad you ignored the part about grooming gangs.
- vkou 6y ago
  If 90%-95% of Europeans were killed by foreign invaders, and the remaining survivors were herded from concentration camp to reservation to concentration camp, and were then consistently robbed of their land by the government and resource extraction firms, you may be able to reasonably compare the plight of a native Dane to that of a native American. Since that has not happened, such a comparison comes off as both incredibly tone-deaf, and incredibly ignorant of history. PS. It's not Native Americans[1] that are driving anti-immigration sentiment in the United States. [1] Yes, obviously, some of them harbour such sentiment. They don't make up the majority of the political support for it, though. Most of that support comes from European immigrants and descendants of European immigrants, many of whom were admitted into the country with not much more than the clothes on their backs.

Don’t you think the reason why most Danes are against nonwestern immigration because they don’t want to go towards being an ethnic minority, like Swedes are in Malmö just across the bridge?

kypro 6y ago

It's different in Europe, here natives who express concern over the preservation of their heritage, culture or don't wish to be a minority in their ethnic homeland are generally seen as racist. In US (and elsewhere in the world) it seems to be more accepted that natives deserve special protections and privileges. I have family who live in an area which over the last few decades has become majority immigrant (as in most people from the area weren't born in Britain) and overwhelmingly non-British (75%+, if I remember correctly). Crime has become extremely bad and my elderly family feel culturally isolated as one of the few non-muslim, British residents left on their council block. I honestly don't understand what people mean about immigration not affecting normal people. I can only assume they're just talking about the middle-class educated working immigrants who speak English -- you know, the kind of immigrant the average middle class person associates with. Presumably they don't live in a flat where most people no longer celebrate Christmas, don't speak your language, and don't work. I have female family members from that area who have been groomed, my own GF was sexually abused and accused of being a "white-who*e" several times. If immigration isn't affecting you personally, that's great. Now I'm in a middle-class area it's not something I worry about much anymore either, but I urge people to try living in these majority areas for a bit if they believe mass-non-western-immigration into Europe is no problem.

barbacoa 6y ago
> most people no longer celebrate Christmas, don't speak your language, and don't work I find this the most alarming part of what Europe is doing. In the USA they had a welfare system back in the 1960s that many saw as actively discouraged employment and dual parent households. These policies were meant to help American Blacks recover from centuries of discrimination. But the unfortunate part is that it just ended up creating permanent ghetto subcultures of culturally ingrained poverty, crime, and government dependency.
- vkou 6y ago
  > But the unfortunate part is that it just ended up creating permanent ghetto subcultures of culturally ingrained poverty, crime, and government dependency. Are you sure it was the welfare state that created it, and not continued discrimination, redlining, and systemic racism? I don't believe all the people and organizations carrying out those practices just shriveled up and died as soon as the CRA was passed. You're looking at wet streets, and deducing that they obviously caused rain.
  - barbacoa 6y ago
    Modern day African immigrants generally as a group don't suffer the same issues that afflict American Blacks. Racism is a problem that has existed and probably always will, but I don't think it is appropriate to blame racism for of all of modern day ills.
    - vkou 6y ago
      Modern day African immigrants tend to be college-educated professionals. It's an incredibly slanted sample set.
- 542354234235 6y ago
  >In the USA they had a welfare system back in the 1960s that many saw as actively discouraged employment and dual parent households. The US had a welfare system since the 30s, and it primarily benefited whites. Blacks were systematically discriminated against, denied benefits, and kicked off benefits where whites were not. > “From the early history of the country’s welfare programs, allowing local discretion as to who can receive benefits has continually led to African American families receiving less or getting tossed off the rolls altogether. When mothers’ pensions, the precursor to welfare, were launched in the early 20th century, they mostly went to white women. Case workers had a fair amount of discretion in who received these pensions, and they believed African American women should work—something they tended to believe was beneath white women. They regularly denied African American women pensions” [1] > “The ADC was an extension of the state-operated mothers’ pension programs, where white widows were the primary beneficiaries. The criteria for eligibility and need were state-determined, so blacks continued to be barred from full participation because the country operated under the “separate but equal” doctrine adopted by the Supreme Court in 1896.” [2] When more blacks were able to enroll in programs, due to LBJ’s war on poverty and the civil rights movement, attitudes on welfare began to change. Then Reagan played on those racial attitudes and shaped the modern conception of the lazy black welfare queen ghetto culture. > “The term “welfare” had a positive connotation among Americans before the 1960s, according to Soss, but as the program became more diverse, stereotypes about “freeloaders” started to emerge.” [1] >” During [the Reagan administration], data from public polls indicate that a growing percentage of Americans believed that slackness and lack of motivation to work were the main causes of poverty” [3] > “This anti-welfare-ideology manifested itself in an altered perception of welfare recipients and a changed view on poverty. The poor were no longer regarded as victims of the economic system… Blaming the poor for their life situation is nothing new, but within the Reagan years stigmatization intensified drastically. Besides emphasizing dependency over poverty, the government allowed the term welfare to be further labeled by race and gender. Although welfare has always been associated with these terms, the administration’s welfare-state-rhetoric involved severe generalizations and moralistic accusations. Additionally, the promotion of negative stereotypes incorporated the distinction between those in need of protection, the undeserving poor, and the deserving poor, including “welfare queens” and “freeloaders”. The “truly needy” considered as deserving assistance, are, inter alia, the elderly or disabled, so to speak groups who should not be expected to work.” [3] > These policies were meant to help American Blacks recover from centuries of discrimination. But the unfortunate part is that it just ended up creating permanent ghetto subcultures of culturally ingrained poverty, crime, and government dependency. There is little to no data indicating welfare is responsible for black poverty. There is lots of data that hundreds of years of slavery, followed by a hundred years of Jim Crow, followed by redlining [4], followed by using highway construction, urban planning, and eminent domain to destroy black communities [5], followed by the war on drugs created expressly so Nixon could target black people [6], and hundreds of other policies and actions targeting black people and black communities are responsible for black poverty. > “We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did" [6] [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/06/race-safety-net-welfare/529203/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/06/race-sa... [2] https://apnews.com/article/fbd5d3c83e3243e9b03e46d7cb842eaa https://apnews.com/article/fbd5d3c83e3243e9b03e46d7cb842eaa [3] https://www.grin.com/document/519964 https://www.grin.com/document/519964 [4] https://www.npr.org/2017/05/03/526655831/a-forgotten-history-of-how-the-u-s-government-segregated-america https://www.npr.org/2017/05/03/526655831/a-forgotten-history... [5] https://www.itdp.org/2021/03/10/highways-and-zoning-tools-of-racist-policy/ https://www.itdp.org/2021/03/10/highways-and-zoning-tools-of... [6] https://www.businessinsider.com/nixon-adviser-ehrlichman-anti-left-anti-black-war-on-drugs-2019-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/nixon-adviser-ehrlichman-ant...
tasogare 6y ago
> In US (and elsewhere in the world) it seems to be more accepted that natives deserve special protections and privileges. Hence the reservations I guess. Very "privileged"... I agree with the rest of your post though. Actually right now in France, since immigration is starting to hurt some of the classes that traditionally promoted it (teachers with the beheading affair, politicians losing against ethnic lists in some cities, journalists being aggressed, one in coma) the public discourse is slowly changing... a little. When everyone, up to the president and people in the parliament will be negatively affected, things will change fast. Until then people having legit complains will be labeled racists.
542354234235 6y ago
> In US (and elsewhere in the world) it seems to be more accepted that natives deserve special protections and privileges. It isn’t more accepted, it is a different situation where these natives were systematically wiped out and almost completely destroyed entirely. They are given special protections now (not privileges) because they are still feeling the very real effects of active cultural destruction, forced sterilizations, children kidnapped and put into “reeducation camps”, etc. The British government is not banning speaking English or forcing children to attend Islamic schools or banning white Britons from owning property. > I have family who live in an area which over the last few decades has become majority immigrant It sounds like what you mean is the neighborhood has become majority poor. The low-income immigrants moving in were likely an effect of, not a cause of, the neighborhood’s economic decline. Lack of economic opportunity is strongly correlated with crime, immigration status is not. > Now I'm in a middle-class area it's not something I worry about much anymore As I suspected. You should probably look into what city planning policies, or lack thereof, and other economic factors are allowing this kind of neighborhood disinvestment, and not blame the low income people who may or may not be immigrants that move to the housing that they can afford.
papaf 6y ago
Now I'm in a middle-class area it's not something I worry about much anymore either, but I urge people to try living in these majority areas for a bit if they believe mass-non-western-immigration into Europe is no problem. I also grew up in Britain and I grew up on a road where there were only 2 or 3 white families and there was a Mosque. I went to a primary school were the majority of kids were non-white. Your description of immigration does not match my experience. Presumably they don't live in a flat where most people no longer celebrate Christmas, don't speak your language, and don't work. This is an inaccurate racist stereotype. My muslim neighbours bought me a Christmas present, spoke English and worked.
- medicineman 6y ago
  Glad you ignored the part about grooming gangs.
vkou 6y ago
If 90%-95% of Europeans were killed by foreign invaders, and the remaining survivors were herded from concentration camp to reservation to concentration camp, and were then consistently robbed of their land by the government and resource extraction firms, you may be able to reasonably compare the plight of a native Dane to that of a native American. Since that has not happened, such a comparison comes off as both incredibly tone-deaf, and incredibly ignorant of history. PS. It's not Native Americans[1] that are driving anti-immigration sentiment in the United States. [1] Yes, obviously, some of them harbour such sentiment. They don't make up the majority of the political support for it, though. Most of that support comes from European immigrants and descendants of European immigrants, many of whom were admitted into the country with not much more than the clothes on their backs.