5 ms·

Building a Devops team

50 points by sciurus 15y ago

andreadallera 15y ago
Just wondering: how much do they pay? I'm asking this because 1) people with the skill set they're looking for are extremely rare 2) tend to be self-employed or startuppers 3) might leave any moment if the conditions they're looking for are not met. So what's the kind of money you're offering to retain these guys?
- glenngillen 15y ago
  Disclaimer: I've previously worked with the owner of the linked blog, but not in the environment being discussed in this post. I can't give you the specifics for the employer (Sony) mentioned in the blog post, but I can offer answers based as my own experience. I went back to freelancing/self-employed about 5 years ago following 7 years of being in a full-time job. At the time it was primarily motivated by the rates I'd seen advertised for roles similar to what I was already doing, with grand plans of building a team of other contractors that I'd farm work out to and skim a % off the top and ultimately build a successful dev shop of my own. I quickly realised the economics and scale required to make that happen, so instead focussed on just making sure I had enough work to keep myself busy. What I've realised in that time is: * Demand definitely exceeds supply at the moment. I've constantly had more paying work than I have time available to do it. * We (developers) get paid stupidly good for what we do. Not movie star/sports person good, but still pretty amazing given there is very little risk to our health and much of it can be self taught. * Primarily chasing the money is almost always destined to end in disaster. I spent the better part of 3 years working with Stephen (the author of the linked blog) for a client. Almost everyone there was self-employed, and most had been there for longer than I had. I was definitely getting paid below market rates, but I stayed there for that long because: * They were honest and open about everything in the business, I never felt like I was being screwed over or that my contribution was undervalued. * The working environment was flexible, I had Monday's off (which as a contractor is actually another 20% hit on your weekly rate), and my performance was measured by delivering rather than face-time and adherence to a schedule. * It was just a generally great place to be. I've since worked for clients where the environment has been just the opposite. The worst places have always been the highest paying, they've always been cashflow rich and figure money can solve all their problems. If I've had any complaints about the way things were done and said I was leaving, they'd throw more money at me. I'd justify accepting it at the time, and then start to feel dirty about the fact you're just whoring yourself out. I can't be the only one to have conclusion, the fact I've worked with so many talented people happily earning less than their potential I think confirms that. Because lets be honest, I could be earning 50% of what "market rates" are these days and still be a hell of a long way from the poverty line. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while great developers might be rare, I think great developers that are primarily motivated by their daily rate are even rarer. If you (as an employer) are aware that all your employees, whether they are contractors or not, might leave at any moment if you're not offering them an enjoyable place to work... well then I think you're half way there. Then build it, and they will come :)
  - getsat 15y ago
    So, do you actually have any numbers to answer the grandparent's question? I'm guessing $80,000 USD + benefits (or equivalent) at a minimum.
    - glenngillen 15y ago
      No, and I obviously didn't make my point clearly enough. It was to stop thinking that you have to offer a minimum of $x to attract people. I tolerated a 49% drop in effective pay rate to work somewhere I loved. Offer a really great place to work, at a minimum.
      - andreadallera 15y ago
        It's your life and you make the calls but why couldn't you just work half the time then? You'd get the same money and 12 or so days off every month. You can do plenty of interesting work during that spare time.
        glenngillen 15y ago
        Because I've seen plenty of people try that (myself included) and it's rarely worked as planned. If you've got an interesting idea that you genuinely I think being tied up doing something else for 8 hours a day is just an excuse. You can either fit it in to your down time, or quit completely and be truly motivated to get it done. Instead I opted to have a long weekend every week, and spend my days doing something I enjoyed for people I liked for an amount of money that let me live a still very comfortable lifestyle in what is reportedly one of the most expensive cities in the world. I've still got a tonne of time to do interesting work, and a family that is happy I'm not coming home complaining about "the office".
        unfocused 15y ago
        >a family that is happy I'm not coming home complaining about "the office" That was why I quit my last job. I was emotionally invested. Couldn't help it. When you come home and 90% of the time you're complaining to your family about work - it's time to leave. My current job is a 10 minute walk. 9 to 5. And I'm paid well. I come home quickly and have plenty of time to spend on whatever I want. And right now, it's my family.
thirdstation 15y ago
I've always thought this type of person was called a 'generalist'. I like devops a bit better. The problem I've found being a devops-type person is that hiring managers have a hard time figuring out what you do and why you're valuable (author of post excluded). I've received comments that my resume is too unfocused -- they'd ask if I wanted to be a sys admin or a developer, to which I'd answer "both!"
illumin8 15y ago
I really like his interview process. Having you actually install WordPress and troubleshoot a broken MySQL installation, while having full access to Google and other resources, is much closer to real sysadmin work than the type of interviewing that Google and the rest of the tech elite seem to like. I am so sick of getting asked basic administrivia that you never need to know in your daily job, or can easily be googled within 3 seconds. Our brains have selective memory - we remember what is important to us. If I have to sit through one more interview being asked about esoteric junk like the structure of an inode on disk or how to code an algorithm that you never use outside of a CompSci course in University I'm going to hang up on the interviewer.
unfocused 15y ago
I just created this account to comment on this. I am a generalist. I started out as a hardware and software designer, but then focused on software for many years. Later moving from Development to Operations where I can write code and deal with sys admin stuff at the same. Writing monitoring tools, installation packages, automation for release and builds, as well reading all the developers code that gets checked into the Source Code repository. Troubleshooting servers, permissions, network issues, software bugs in websites, client/server apps, SQL... whatever it took. I got my previous first job about 8 years and I remember the person hiring me saying that they wanted “specialists”. I firmly replied I am a generalist. I didn’t hear back for a month or 2 but then got the call that I was hired. For the first few years, the generalist mentality was actually how things ran. Everybody was expected to dive into code, databases, server, etc. Suddenly, they said that silos were forming and in order to improve the organization, a re-org was needed and you had your various teams of architects, dev, support & ops, DBAs, Q&A, project management, etc..you get the idea. A year after this process the whole team spirit was crushed. The whole “not our problem, it’s that team’s problem” starting gaining ground. People that were once team mates were now (using the someone eles’s words) throwing problems over the wall back and forth. People also threatened management that if they ever got put on team ‘X’, they’re quitting. Yup, they made specialists out of the wrong people. If only they had just left the generalist structure be. For me, understanding something from the beginning to the end is VERY important. How can someone write programs if they don’t understand how security is handled on the web server, or how SQL statements affect performance, or how deployment is done? I think having an assembly like structure (specialists) can work, but it’s not as responsive as a generalist structure. Products will get shipped with less silly mistakes if you know what the destination looks like. Release and deployment is so misunderstood by many developers. People need to get their hands dirty. I have since left that organization and I’m now back to a generalist position where I can get my hands dirty. It’s tough because you’re starting from scratch again and trying to hire once again. Hiring is hard. Typically, new organizations need generalists more than established ones. That is not to say that established organizations should have less of a use for them. I tried to change the shift from specialists to generalists at my previous work, but you start hurting your career if you’re constantly grinding it out with upper management. You have to know when to let go. I really like this term Devops. Because you Developers do need to be able to understand Operations, and vice versa.
wunderfool 15y ago
don't despair, someone will soon write sudo-zsh.js, and then all the frontend people will believe ops is also just a trivial matter of knowing js, and then your problems will be solved
viraptor 15y ago
Could the timing be worse? "Brian Henerey heads up Operations Engineering in the Online Technology Group at Sony Computer Entertainment Europe." talking about devops? It's almost as fun as Sony's scheduled tweets, inviting to play online while their network was down. Whatever he wrote in this article, I'd be thinking about their security problems and how they relate to what he's promoting...
jamesli 15y ago
Great articles, including those from the links. I have troubles in finding such a position, even though I focus on start-ups only.

50 points by sciurus 15y ago

Just wondering: how much do they pay? I'm asking this because 1) people with the skill set they're looking for are extremely rare 2) tend to be self-employed or startuppers 3) might leave any moment if the conditions they're looking for are not met. So what's the kind of money you're offering to retain these guys?

glenngillen 15y ago
Disclaimer: I've previously worked with the owner of the linked blog, but not in the environment being discussed in this post. I can't give you the specifics for the employer (Sony) mentioned in the blog post, but I can offer answers based as my own experience. I went back to freelancing/self-employed about 5 years ago following 7 years of being in a full-time job. At the time it was primarily motivated by the rates I'd seen advertised for roles similar to what I was already doing, with grand plans of building a team of other contractors that I'd farm work out to and skim a % off the top and ultimately build a successful dev shop of my own. I quickly realised the economics and scale required to make that happen, so instead focussed on just making sure I had enough work to keep myself busy. What I've realised in that time is: * Demand definitely exceeds supply at the moment. I've constantly had more paying work than I have time available to do it. * We (developers) get paid stupidly good for what we do. Not movie star/sports person good, but still pretty amazing given there is very little risk to our health and much of it can be self taught. * Primarily chasing the money is almost always destined to end in disaster. I spent the better part of 3 years working with Stephen (the author of the linked blog) for a client. Almost everyone there was self-employed, and most had been there for longer than I had. I was definitely getting paid below market rates, but I stayed there for that long because: * They were honest and open about everything in the business, I never felt like I was being screwed over or that my contribution was undervalued. * The working environment was flexible, I had Monday's off (which as a contractor is actually another 20% hit on your weekly rate), and my performance was measured by delivering rather than face-time and adherence to a schedule. * It was just a generally great place to be. I've since worked for clients where the environment has been just the opposite. The worst places have always been the highest paying, they've always been cashflow rich and figure money can solve all their problems. If I've had any complaints about the way things were done and said I was leaving, they'd throw more money at me. I'd justify accepting it at the time, and then start to feel dirty about the fact you're just whoring yourself out. I can't be the only one to have conclusion, the fact I've worked with so many talented people happily earning less than their potential I think confirms that. Because lets be honest, I could be earning 50% of what "market rates" are these days and still be a hell of a long way from the poverty line. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while great developers might be rare, I think great developers that are primarily motivated by their daily rate are even rarer. If you (as an employer) are aware that all your employees, whether they are contractors or not, might leave at any moment if you're not offering them an enjoyable place to work... well then I think you're half way there. Then build it, and they will come :)
- getsat 15y ago
  So, do you actually have any numbers to answer the grandparent's question? I'm guessing $80,000 USD + benefits (or equivalent) at a minimum.
  - glenngillen 15y ago
    No, and I obviously didn't make my point clearly enough. It was to stop thinking that you have to offer a minimum of $x to attract people. I tolerated a 49% drop in effective pay rate to work somewhere I loved. Offer a really great place to work, at a minimum.
    - andreadallera 15y ago
      It's your life and you make the calls but why couldn't you just work half the time then? You'd get the same money and 12 or so days off every month. You can do plenty of interesting work during that spare time.
      - glenngillen 15y ago
        Because I've seen plenty of people try that (myself included) and it's rarely worked as planned. If you've got an interesting idea that you genuinely I think being tied up doing something else for 8 hours a day is just an excuse. You can either fit it in to your down time, or quit completely and be truly motivated to get it done. Instead I opted to have a long weekend every week, and spend my days doing something I enjoyed for people I liked for an amount of money that let me live a still very comfortable lifestyle in what is reportedly one of the most expensive cities in the world. I've still got a tonne of time to do interesting work, and a family that is happy I'm not coming home complaining about "the office".
        unfocused 15y ago
        >a family that is happy I'm not coming home complaining about "the office" That was why I quit my last job. I was emotionally invested. Couldn't help it. When you come home and 90% of the time you're complaining to your family about work - it's time to leave. My current job is a 10 minute walk. 9 to 5. And I'm paid well. I come home quickly and have plenty of time to spend on whatever I want. And right now, it's my family.

thirdstation 15y ago

I've always thought this type of person was called a 'generalist'. I like devops a bit better. The problem I've found being a devops-type person is that hiring managers have a hard time figuring out what you do and why you're valuable (author of post excluded). I've received comments that my resume is too unfocused -- they'd ask if I wanted to be a sys admin or a developer, to which I'd answer "both!"

illumin8 15y ago

I really like his interview process. Having you actually install WordPress and troubleshoot a broken MySQL installation, while having full access to Google and other resources, is much closer to real sysadmin work than the type of interviewing that Google and the rest of the tech elite seem to like. I am so sick of getting asked basic administrivia that you never need to know in your daily job, or can easily be googled within 3 seconds. Our brains have selective memory - we remember what is important to us. If I have to sit through one more interview being asked about esoteric junk like the structure of an inode on disk or how to code an algorithm that you never use outside of a CompSci course in University I'm going to hang up on the interviewer.

unfocused 15y ago

I just created this account to comment on this. I am a generalist. I started out as a hardware and software designer, but then focused on software for many years. Later moving from Development to Operations where I can write code and deal with sys admin stuff at the same. Writing monitoring tools, installation packages, automation for release and builds, as well reading all the developers code that gets checked into the Source Code repository. Troubleshooting servers, permissions, network issues, software bugs in websites, client/server apps, SQL... whatever it took. I got my previous first job about 8 years and I remember the person hiring me saying that they wanted “specialists”. I firmly replied I am a generalist. I didn’t hear back for a month or 2 but then got the call that I was hired. For the first few years, the generalist mentality was actually how things ran. Everybody was expected to dive into code, databases, server, etc. Suddenly, they said that silos were forming and in order to improve the organization, a re-org was needed and you had your various teams of architects, dev, support & ops, DBAs, Q&A, project management, etc..you get the idea. A year after this process the whole team spirit was crushed. The whole “not our problem, it’s that team’s problem” starting gaining ground. People that were once team mates were now (using the someone eles’s words) throwing problems over the wall back and forth. People also threatened management that if they ever got put on team ‘X’, they’re quitting. Yup, they made specialists out of the wrong people. If only they had just left the generalist structure be. For me, understanding something from the beginning to the end is VERY important. How can someone write programs if they don’t understand how security is handled on the web server, or how SQL statements affect performance, or how deployment is done? I think having an assembly like structure (specialists) can work, but it’s not as responsive as a generalist structure. Products will get shipped with less silly mistakes if you know what the destination looks like. Release and deployment is so misunderstood by many developers. People need to get their hands dirty. I have since left that organization and I’m now back to a generalist position where I can get my hands dirty. It’s tough because you’re starting from scratch again and trying to hire once again. Hiring is hard. Typically, new organizations need generalists more than established ones. That is not to say that established organizations should have less of a use for them. I tried to change the shift from specialists to generalists at my previous work, but you start hurting your career if you’re constantly grinding it out with upper management. You have to know when to let go. I really like this term Devops. Because you Developers do need to be able to understand Operations, and vice versa.

wunderfool 15y ago

don't despair, someone will soon write sudo-zsh.js, and then all the frontend people will believe ops is also just a trivial matter of knowing js, and then your problems will be solved

viraptor 15y ago

Could the timing be worse? "Brian Henerey heads up Operations Engineering in the Online Technology Group at Sony Computer Entertainment Europe." talking about devops? It's almost as fun as Sony's scheduled tweets, inviting to play online while their network was down. Whatever he wrote in this article, I'd be thinking about their security problems and how they relate to what he's promoting...

jamesli 15y ago

Great articles, including those from the links. I have troubles in finding such a position, even though I focus on start-ups only.