10 ms·

This sucks. Why connect random ownable devices to your network, especially for the low low benefit of <checks notes> ... knowing when the clothes' drier is don

by ovi256 6y ago

This sucks. Why connect random ownable devices to your network, especially for the low low benefit of <checks notes> ... knowing when the clothes' drier is done ?!? Connected firmware updatable white goods allow appliance manufacturers to do even less QA because they can always fix it later, which wasn't possible before. If you're the paranoid who won't connect random crap to the net, this is bad news, as you'll get lower quality appliances.

tdy_err 6y ago
I did know true exhilaration until I turned on my dryer light remotely
- tanseydavid 6y ago
  "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" </sarc>
EveYoung 6y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if we get internet-only appliances soon, which charge customers on a pay-per-use basis. Considering the low margins on the average whitegoods, it could be an attractive business model to bundle the consumables with the hardware as part of a subscription/PAYG model. Or you could lockdown certain modes and temperatures behind a paywall. Similar how the car industry is already doing it.
- theriddlr 6y ago
  Thermomix locks a few features behind a subscription. "Subscription-only features include caramelization, slow cooking, and frying." https://www.thespruceeats.com/thermomix-tm6-review-4693221 https://www.thespruceeats.com/thermomix-tm6-review-4693221
  - HomeDeLaPot 6y ago
    Wow. And those features don't work without WiFi. Why the heck would it need an internet connection and a subscription to fry something? It already costs $1,500! You'd think maybe it would be using AI to figure out how to best fry the food or something like that, but the article also says the frying function didn't work very well...
    - theriddlr 6y ago
      The smart models have recipe step-by-step. The recipes can send commands to the Thermomix rather than manually setting the dials and timers. There's also a baby companion Thermomix Friend that can receive commands from the main unit to cook dishes separately e.g. a sauce. https://www.vorwerk.co.uk/thermomix/thermomix-friend/ https://www.vorwerk.co.uk/thermomix/thermomix-friend/ I have the dumb TM31.
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
    I know I'm going to be wrong, but I really hope this is peak rent seeking.
    - tanseydavid 6y ago
      I feel exactly the same way. Non-geek friends are always shocked that I do not typically want additional new tech-stuff in my life unless the payoff is very high. Novel and interesting are not sufficient on their own. I am immersed in layers of technology (and poorly-thought-out Authentication schemes) everyday for 10-12 hours and it presents a noticeable amount of frustration. I rarely am looking for more of it. I am pretty sure I don't want my dryer on my network.
      - ncpa-cpl 6y ago
        Same here. A couple of weeks ago I had to spend an afternoon in Wireshark to make some "smart" lightbulbs work with the corporate WiFi. One of the owners wanted to add iPhone controlled mood lighting to the office.
      - KozmoNau7 6y ago
        I've run into the same reactions from friends and colleagues. They're surprised that someone with a career in IT and tech doesn't want smart speakers or home assistants or any kind of IoT. In their perception, I should be all over every new little gadget and interconnected doodad, but those sorts of devices just drive me up the wall. There is always some annoying issue or limitation, a lot of them don't even perform their primary function adequately, and if something goes wrong, you have no logging or diagnostics possibilities, short of maybe cracking open the case and looking for a JTAG connector or something. It drives me crazy when I can't just look at a log file or at least get a descriptive error message, it's always just "oops, something broke, sorry about that teehee". Then you power cycle the device and hope that works, if not then you try a factory reset. If that doesn't work, what do you do? Everything is so integrated today that old-school fault finding on a PCB won't yield anything of value. I hate it. I do have some smart/IoT/modern gadget tech devices. The thermostats on our radiators are intelligent. By this I mean they have a programmed daily schedule, to lower temps at night. They also sense open windows from the temperature drop and shut the heat off and then on again when we close the windows. The only connectivity on them is Bluetooth, which has to be turned on by a button press on the individual thermostat, every time you want to connect to it. That is the sort of connectivity I will accept from "smart" devices. The other is a Chromecast, which is reluctantly tolerated because it's the lowest-friction way to have a collaborative queue of videos to watch, when you're in couch potato mode. But if anything goes wrong, you have to break out the garlic and black candles and hope you can perform the proper incantation to make it happy again. If I could get similar functionality on the HTPC in a web browser tuned to https://youtube.com https://youtube.com, that little puck-like bastard would be forever banned from the premises. If I want more home automation, I will program it myself using a Pi or Arduino or ESP32 or something, combined with commodity electronics and sensors. So far, the need has not presented itself.
- StevenWaterman 6y ago
  See `Unauthorized Bread` https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
  - ajdude 6y ago
    I can’t believe that I just read that entire thing, and holy smokes that was a trip.
- baybal2 6y ago
  > I wouldn't be surprised if we get internet-only appliances soon, which charge customers on a pay-per-use basis. Well, that's an everyday sales lead for us these days. The devious "Product as a Service" is by far the most demanded feature.
- lazyweb 6y ago
  One short story in Cory Doctorow's "Radicalized" is exactly about that. In the story, immigrants living in social housing supplied with "smart" appliances are only allowed pre-approved detergent, among other things. Can recommend the other stories from the book as well. The one about the doomsday fetishists is something I think about every once in a while, especially now during the pandemic.
- happypenguin 6y ago
  Even worse, let's apply the non network neutrality argument: the washer won't work without certain "licensed" detergents sold as for the safety of the washer (some claim about harm of the device from the wrong detergent). Consumers need to outright reject these attempts by manufacturers. Is there risk that some appliances already put some sort of timer chip and stop working after some time? Kind of the HP inkjet business model? We need some open source washer companies, I would pay a premium for an open source washing machine.
  - MikeUt 6y ago
    > Consumers need to outright reject these attempts Voters need to ban these attempts. Limiting our power to that of mere consumers is what has allowed things to get this bad in the first place.
  - patrickwalton 6y ago
    NPR just did a show on consumers fighting back against the HP Inkjet model https://www.npr.org/2021/02/17/968704526/why-printers-are-the-worst https://www.npr.org/2021/02/17/968704526/why-printers-are-th...
- matt-attack 6y ago
  Already happened with home exercise bikes. A decade ago no one would have fathomed that millions would be buying home gym equipment with subscription models. I tend to agree that subscription models will evolve into many more devices.
oftenwrong 6y ago
Home automation seems to mainly achieve "low low benefits". Like turning on a light from your phone instead of using a light switch. These things make some minor conveniences possible, but don't come close to being essential. It doesn't seem worth it for the privacy, security, management overhead, cost, etc.
- happypenguin 6y ago
  When done well it provides more than just toggling a switch on your phone. Examples are timers for lights to say turn on outdoor lights at dusk. Turning on thr garage light when the garage door opens. Double tapping the switch by thr front door to turn off all lights in your home. I'd like to think that shunning home automation isn't the answer, rather demanding open protocols and no internet connection required, such as with ZWave and more so Zigbee.
  - llampx 6y ago
    I'm no expert but these appliances don't seem to be very programmable. For example, can I set the living room bulbs to be white in the day, gradually turn yellower throughout the evening and red at night? To me it just seems like going from a dimmer switch on the wall to an app on a phone is being heralded as a revolution, when it isn't.
    - yunohn 6y ago
      It sounds like you haven’t used any automation systems. You can do exactly that (and more) with the most popular smart light - Philips Hue. Other brands can as well.
  - oftenwrong 6y ago
    Some of these things can be achieved with lower-tech sensors. Outdoor lights with light or motion sensors are common. Garage lights typically turn on automatically when the garage door opens. If you mean the human-sized door to the garage, light bulbs with built-in motion sensors are available; I have used those in entryways and in closets. I don't have a garage, but if I did it would be nice to be able to close it remotely if I forgot to. I have also installed timer switches to make sure things like vent fans for the shower do not stay on longer than necessary. Switching all lights at once is nifty if you live in a large home. I have a small home, so it's quite trivial to turn off all of the lights. For myself, I just don't think it's worth it to setup more sophisticated automation at this time. For one, I rent. Second, of all of the inconveniences in my life, these are at the bottom of the list. One of the best minor conveniences I addressed recently was getting a larger-volume soap dispenser so that I have to refill it less often.

by ovi256 6y ago

tdy_err 6y ago

I did know true exhilaration until I turned on my dryer light remotely

tanseydavid 6y ago
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" </sarc>

EveYoung 6y ago

I wouldn't be surprised if we get internet-only appliances soon, which charge customers on a pay-per-use basis. Considering the low margins on the average whitegoods, it could be an attractive business model to bundle the consumables with the hardware as part of a subscription/PAYG model. Or you could lockdown certain modes and temperatures behind a paywall. Similar how the car industry is already doing it.

theriddlr 6y ago
Thermomix locks a few features behind a subscription. "Subscription-only features include caramelization, slow cooking, and frying." https://www.thespruceeats.com/thermomix-tm6-review-4693221 https://www.thespruceeats.com/thermomix-tm6-review-4693221
- HomeDeLaPot 6y ago
  Wow. And those features don't work without WiFi. Why the heck would it need an internet connection and a subscription to fry something? It already costs $1,500! You'd think maybe it would be using AI to figure out how to best fry the food or something like that, but the article also says the frying function didn't work very well...
  - theriddlr 6y ago
    The smart models have recipe step-by-step. The recipes can send commands to the Thermomix rather than manually setting the dials and timers. There's also a baby companion Thermomix Friend that can receive commands from the main unit to cook dishes separately e.g. a sauce. https://www.vorwerk.co.uk/thermomix/thermomix-friend/ https://www.vorwerk.co.uk/thermomix/thermomix-friend/ I have the dumb TM31.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
  I know I'm going to be wrong, but I really hope this is peak rent seeking.
  - tanseydavid 6y ago
    I feel exactly the same way. Non-geek friends are always shocked that I do not typically want additional new tech-stuff in my life unless the payoff is very high. Novel and interesting are not sufficient on their own. I am immersed in layers of technology (and poorly-thought-out Authentication schemes) everyday for 10-12 hours and it presents a noticeable amount of frustration. I rarely am looking for more of it. I am pretty sure I don't want my dryer on my network.
    - ncpa-cpl 6y ago
      Same here. A couple of weeks ago I had to spend an afternoon in Wireshark to make some "smart" lightbulbs work with the corporate WiFi. One of the owners wanted to add iPhone controlled mood lighting to the office.
    - KozmoNau7 6y ago
      I've run into the same reactions from friends and colleagues. They're surprised that someone with a career in IT and tech doesn't want smart speakers or home assistants or any kind of IoT. In their perception, I should be all over every new little gadget and interconnected doodad, but those sorts of devices just drive me up the wall. There is always some annoying issue or limitation, a lot of them don't even perform their primary function adequately, and if something goes wrong, you have no logging or diagnostics possibilities, short of maybe cracking open the case and looking for a JTAG connector or something. It drives me crazy when I can't just look at a log file or at least get a descriptive error message, it's always just "oops, something broke, sorry about that teehee". Then you power cycle the device and hope that works, if not then you try a factory reset. If that doesn't work, what do you do? Everything is so integrated today that old-school fault finding on a PCB won't yield anything of value. I hate it. I do have some smart/IoT/modern gadget tech devices. The thermostats on our radiators are intelligent. By this I mean they have a programmed daily schedule, to lower temps at night. They also sense open windows from the temperature drop and shut the heat off and then on again when we close the windows. The only connectivity on them is Bluetooth, which has to be turned on by a button press on the individual thermostat, every time you want to connect to it. That is the sort of connectivity I will accept from "smart" devices. The other is a Chromecast, which is reluctantly tolerated because it's the lowest-friction way to have a collaborative queue of videos to watch, when you're in couch potato mode. But if anything goes wrong, you have to break out the garlic and black candles and hope you can perform the proper incantation to make it happy again. If I could get similar functionality on the HTPC in a web browser tuned to https://youtube.com https://youtube.com, that little puck-like bastard would be forever banned from the premises. If I want more home automation, I will program it myself using a Pi or Arduino or ESP32 or something, combined with commodity electronics and sensors. So far, the need has not presented itself.
StevenWaterman 6y ago
See `Unauthorized Bread` https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
- ajdude 6y ago
  I can’t believe that I just read that entire thing, and holy smokes that was a trip.
baybal2 6y ago
> I wouldn't be surprised if we get internet-only appliances soon, which charge customers on a pay-per-use basis. Well, that's an everyday sales lead for us these days. The devious "Product as a Service" is by far the most demanded feature.
lazyweb 6y ago
One short story in Cory Doctorow's "Radicalized" is exactly about that. In the story, immigrants living in social housing supplied with "smart" appliances are only allowed pre-approved detergent, among other things. Can recommend the other stories from the book as well. The one about the doomsday fetishists is something I think about every once in a while, especially now during the pandemic.
happypenguin 6y ago
Even worse, let's apply the non network neutrality argument: the washer won't work without certain "licensed" detergents sold as for the safety of the washer (some claim about harm of the device from the wrong detergent). Consumers need to outright reject these attempts by manufacturers. Is there risk that some appliances already put some sort of timer chip and stop working after some time? Kind of the HP inkjet business model? We need some open source washer companies, I would pay a premium for an open source washing machine.
- MikeUt 6y ago
  > Consumers need to outright reject these attempts Voters need to ban these attempts. Limiting our power to that of mere consumers is what has allowed things to get this bad in the first place.
- patrickwalton 6y ago
  NPR just did a show on consumers fighting back against the HP Inkjet model https://www.npr.org/2021/02/17/968704526/why-printers-are-the-worst https://www.npr.org/2021/02/17/968704526/why-printers-are-th...
matt-attack 6y ago
Already happened with home exercise bikes. A decade ago no one would have fathomed that millions would be buying home gym equipment with subscription models. I tend to agree that subscription models will evolve into many more devices.

oftenwrong 6y ago

Home automation seems to mainly achieve "low low benefits". Like turning on a light from your phone instead of using a light switch. These things make some minor conveniences possible, but don't come close to being essential. It doesn't seem worth it for the privacy, security, management overhead, cost, etc.

happypenguin 6y ago
When done well it provides more than just toggling a switch on your phone. Examples are timers for lights to say turn on outdoor lights at dusk. Turning on thr garage light when the garage door opens. Double tapping the switch by thr front door to turn off all lights in your home. I'd like to think that shunning home automation isn't the answer, rather demanding open protocols and no internet connection required, such as with ZWave and more so Zigbee.
- llampx 6y ago
  I'm no expert but these appliances don't seem to be very programmable. For example, can I set the living room bulbs to be white in the day, gradually turn yellower throughout the evening and red at night? To me it just seems like going from a dimmer switch on the wall to an app on a phone is being heralded as a revolution, when it isn't.
  - yunohn 6y ago
    It sounds like you haven’t used any automation systems. You can do exactly that (and more) with the most popular smart light - Philips Hue. Other brands can as well.
- oftenwrong 6y ago
  Some of these things can be achieved with lower-tech sensors. Outdoor lights with light or motion sensors are common. Garage lights typically turn on automatically when the garage door opens. If you mean the human-sized door to the garage, light bulbs with built-in motion sensors are available; I have used those in entryways and in closets. I don't have a garage, but if I did it would be nice to be able to close it remotely if I forgot to. I have also installed timer switches to make sure things like vent fans for the shower do not stay on longer than necessary. Switching all lights at once is nifty if you live in a large home. I have a small home, so it's quite trivial to turn off all of the lights. For myself, I just don't think it's worth it to setup more sophisticated automation at this time. For one, I rent. Second, of all of the inconveniences in my life, these are at the bottom of the list. One of the best minor conveniences I addressed recently was getting a larger-volume soap dispenser so that I have to refill it less often.