4 ms·

I say this as a long-time PC user; MacBook laptop hardware is unrivaled in the PC space (trackpad, screen and keyboard - not pure price/performance). Having an

I say this as a long-time PC user; MacBook laptop hardware is unrivaled in the PC space (trackpad, screen and keyboard - not pure price/performance). Having any distro running Gnome 40 with full gesture support would be seriously compelling for daily driving.

jillesvangurp 6y ago
Yep, I've been looking for a linux laptop for a while that is actually compelling compared to my mac book pro. It seems just about everything is a downgrade in terms of shitty trackpads, lower resolution screens, memory, etc. Linux UI is not a problem for me; I can deal with that. The hardware is a problem though. Here's what I want: - Something that is faster than the last Apple laptop I loved which, I bought in 2012. I currently have a 2017 model which is barely faster and has the famous cluster fuck of a keyboard that I loathe with a passion. The 2012 model would have been a MBP 15" with a quad core i7, 16GB, and 256GB. Anything less than those specs is beyond pathetically and woefully inadequate. Anything not at least 2-8x better than that is still unimpressive given that we've had 4 iterations of Moore's law since then. Right now, I'd probably settle for 64GB RAM and some nice 8-16 core CPU. I'd take more if I could. Those AMD chips look pretty nice. Core i-9 also not too bad. - 13-15" hdpi, non negotiable. I will never downgrade to anything less than a 4K screen. I'm writing this on an imac with a 5K screen. It's from 2014. My current laptop has a retina screen. It's four years old. It's 2021. I don't want/need a screen that was outdated and underwhelming 6 years ago. - A trackpad that doesn't suck. I don't want want/need physical mouse buttons. I'm not ever going to use an external mouse. I want something I can use that doesn't actually suck. Apple nailed that more than a decade ago. Some manufacturers come close to this platonic ideal of a trackpad. Bot most don't even pretend to bother. Also, linux support for this seems to be a perpetual work in progress. - A keyboard that is comfortable to use. Seems obvious but again hard to get. Apple messed this up and is in the process of correcting that mistake. It matters. I use laptops, a lot. My wrists matter to me. So do ergonomics. Or having an actual escape key (seriously, WTF Apple). - Modern ports (USB-C, thunderbolt), bluetooth and wifi that work and with recent specs. I don't actually care about legacy ports that much and certainly not about the extra space and weight that seems to imply. But I do care that my headphones connect and that I can plug in a fancy screen with high resolution and its own assortment of ports. I.e. a thunderbolt screen that I can daisy chain to other screens and my laptop. - A sensible design and weight. I don't want a ten kilo brick in my backpack. - Lap friendly cooling. I actually use my laptop on my lap. I don't want it leaving scorch marks on my pants. Nor do I want it to sound like a vacuum cleaner. What I described is a pro laptop. High end requirements. I know of a handful of models that come close to this. All of these have issues with Linux support. Key components that don't work or are not fully supported or require lots of hacks to get working.
- iSnow 6y ago
  Really, 4K on a 13" screen? 64GB LP-DDR in a small and light laptop? 16 cores again in a small and light form factor? That's going to be a long wait. Most consumers don't need more than 4 cores and 16GB and that's where the mass market is. Prosumer models don't reach that high and pro workstations are big and clunky because companies would rather buy a stationary workstation and a light laptop instead of paying $6k or whatever such a beast would cost. With ubiquitous networking, the trend plays against you, I think.
  - secondcoming 6y ago
    I had to buy a laptop due to covid and splashed out on a Dell Precision 7750, 4K screen, WWAN, aftermarket 128GB RAM and SSDs. It's big but I wouldn't describe it as clunky. Cost just under £4k in total.
- lionkor 6y ago
  For me, a Thinkpad L15 AMD ticks all those marks.
- noahtallen 6y ago
  I believe Dell XPS checks very many (if not all) of those options. I haven’t used one, but was seriously considering it + Linux for my last upgrade.
  - apatheticonion 6y ago
    Having previously daily driven an XPS, it's not even close. It's hard to emphasize this enough but the MacBook trackpad is so good that even when I have a mouse attached to the laptop, I use the trackpad. The gestures are indispensable for my workflow. Excluding the touchbar, the entire workflow is far more ergonomic than anything I have seen on the market. I sincerely wish someone would exactly clone the MacBook pro 13 and leave it as an open platform for whatever OS you want to run.
- dm319 6y ago
  Something like a Thinkpad X1 extreme? Or maybe have a look at the P series - I vaguely remember something like the P51s might fit your bill - the modern equiv. They have a better keyboard than any previous macbook, and up to a 4K screen, up to 64Gb RAM. Shame it doesn't have Ryzen like my 8-core X13 has. Should have all the ports. Thinkpads don't have quite the fit and finish that macbooks do - but they come from a different background/purpose - toughness rather than look/feel. However, more recent Thinkpads are looking smarter these days compared to the bricks of yore (which I liked BTW). My X13 has a magnesium under chassis and glass fibre lid.
yreg 6y ago
As a long time Mac user, I'm surprised you praise the keyboard :) I think shipping the unreliable butterfly keyboards for so long might be the largest mishap modern Apple has made.
- bb123 6y ago
  True, but the new keyboards are great. They seem to have learnt their lesson.
- dividedbyzero 6y ago
  They've more than redeemed themselves for me with their 2020 keyboards though. In direct comparison between my current 2020 Intel 13", my previous late 2013 13" and a work-issued 2018-ish 13" butterfly MBP, the 2020 wins hands down. Feels mostly like the late 2013, but slightly less mushy, not that I'd ever considered the late 2013 one mushy, but in direct comparison, it's slightly mushier, if that makes sense. That said, I know at least one person who genuinely prefers the butterfly mechanism, there must be dozens such people out there. Edit: The late 2013 one got a new keyboard in early 2020 as part of a inflated battery exchange, so it's not mushy due to wear.
iSnow 6y ago
Yeah, I wanted to replace my aging Macbook Air with a Linux box but each and every PC laptop trackpad was such a step down that I got hesitant. Additionally, PC manufacturers have been slow to adapt modern IO like Thunderbolt (like Dell had exactly one half-speed TB port for years on their flagship line where Apple had 4 full-speed). Now I've capitulated and am just waiting for the next iteration of the Apple silicon Macbooks. It is sad, but due to not generating sales at the same scale as MS or Apple, Linux lacks the development power to keep up.
hyperpl 6y ago
I would say the thinkpad keyboards are far superior to the Mac keyboards. Also the nub is much more usable to those that prefer it over the touchpad.
- macintux 6y ago
  > Also the nub is much more usable to those that prefer it over the touchpad. Usable as a pointer, maybe, but the trackpad has about 12 other features. Gestures, tap to click, have made the trackpad indispensable to me.
chociej 6y ago
It's really a shame. I'm in the same boat as you. I'd buy their machines instantly if I knew I could install my distro of choice. Last I read, Windows-via-Bootcamp was basically dead, and despite the efforts of e.g. the t2linux.org folks, it seems it's quite difficult to get Linux up and running 100%.

jillesvangurp 6y ago

Yep, I've been looking for a linux laptop for a while that is actually compelling compared to my mac book pro. It seems just about everything is a downgrade in terms of shitty trackpads, lower resolution screens, memory, etc. Linux UI is not a problem for me; I can deal with that. The hardware is a problem though. Here's what I want: - Something that is faster than the last Apple laptop I loved which, I bought in 2012. I currently have a 2017 model which is barely faster and has the famous cluster fuck of a keyboard that I loathe with a passion. The 2012 model would have been a MBP 15" with a quad core i7, 16GB, and 256GB. Anything less than those specs is beyond pathetically and woefully inadequate. Anything not at least 2-8x better than that is still unimpressive given that we've had 4 iterations of Moore's law since then. Right now, I'd probably settle for 64GB RAM and some nice 8-16 core CPU. I'd take more if I could. Those AMD chips look pretty nice. Core i-9 also not too bad. - 13-15" hdpi, non negotiable. I will never downgrade to anything less than a 4K screen. I'm writing this on an imac with a 5K screen. It's from 2014. My current laptop has a retina screen. It's four years old. It's 2021. I don't want/need a screen that was outdated and underwhelming 6 years ago. - A trackpad that doesn't suck. I don't want want/need physical mouse buttons. I'm not ever going to use an external mouse. I want something I can use that doesn't actually suck. Apple nailed that more than a decade ago. Some manufacturers come close to this platonic ideal of a trackpad. Bot most don't even pretend to bother. Also, linux support for this seems to be a perpetual work in progress. - A keyboard that is comfortable to use. Seems obvious but again hard to get. Apple messed this up and is in the process of correcting that mistake. It matters. I use laptops, a lot. My wrists matter to me. So do ergonomics. Or having an actual escape key (seriously, WTF Apple). - Modern ports (USB-C, thunderbolt), bluetooth and wifi that work and with recent specs. I don't actually care about legacy ports that much and certainly not about the extra space and weight that seems to imply. But I do care that my headphones connect and that I can plug in a fancy screen with high resolution and its own assortment of ports. I.e. a thunderbolt screen that I can daisy chain to other screens and my laptop. - A sensible design and weight. I don't want a ten kilo brick in my backpack. - Lap friendly cooling. I actually use my laptop on my lap. I don't want it leaving scorch marks on my pants. Nor do I want it to sound like a vacuum cleaner. What I described is a pro laptop. High end requirements. I know of a handful of models that come close to this. All of these have issues with Linux support. Key components that don't work or are not fully supported or require lots of hacks to get working.

iSnow 6y ago
Really, 4K on a 13" screen? 64GB LP-DDR in a small and light laptop? 16 cores again in a small and light form factor? That's going to be a long wait. Most consumers don't need more than 4 cores and 16GB and that's where the mass market is. Prosumer models don't reach that high and pro workstations are big and clunky because companies would rather buy a stationary workstation and a light laptop instead of paying $6k or whatever such a beast would cost. With ubiquitous networking, the trend plays against you, I think.
- secondcoming 6y ago
  I had to buy a laptop due to covid and splashed out on a Dell Precision 7750, 4K screen, WWAN, aftermarket 128GB RAM and SSDs. It's big but I wouldn't describe it as clunky. Cost just under £4k in total.
lionkor 6y ago
For me, a Thinkpad L15 AMD ticks all those marks.
noahtallen 6y ago
I believe Dell XPS checks very many (if not all) of those options. I haven’t used one, but was seriously considering it + Linux for my last upgrade.
- apatheticonion 6y ago
  Having previously daily driven an XPS, it's not even close. It's hard to emphasize this enough but the MacBook trackpad is so good that even when I have a mouse attached to the laptop, I use the trackpad. The gestures are indispensable for my workflow. Excluding the touchbar, the entire workflow is far more ergonomic than anything I have seen on the market. I sincerely wish someone would exactly clone the MacBook pro 13 and leave it as an open platform for whatever OS you want to run.
dm319 6y ago
Something like a Thinkpad X1 extreme? Or maybe have a look at the P series - I vaguely remember something like the P51s might fit your bill - the modern equiv. They have a better keyboard than any previous macbook, and up to a 4K screen, up to 64Gb RAM. Shame it doesn't have Ryzen like my 8-core X13 has. Should have all the ports. Thinkpads don't have quite the fit and finish that macbooks do - but they come from a different background/purpose - toughness rather than look/feel. However, more recent Thinkpads are looking smarter these days compared to the bricks of yore (which I liked BTW). My X13 has a magnesium under chassis and glass fibre lid.

yreg 6y ago

As a long time Mac user, I'm surprised you praise the keyboard :) I think shipping the unreliable butterfly keyboards for so long might be the largest mishap modern Apple has made.

bb123 6y ago
True, but the new keyboards are great. They seem to have learnt their lesson.
dividedbyzero 6y ago
They've more than redeemed themselves for me with their 2020 keyboards though. In direct comparison between my current 2020 Intel 13", my previous late 2013 13" and a work-issued 2018-ish 13" butterfly MBP, the 2020 wins hands down. Feels mostly like the late 2013, but slightly less mushy, not that I'd ever considered the late 2013 one mushy, but in direct comparison, it's slightly mushier, if that makes sense. That said, I know at least one person who genuinely prefers the butterfly mechanism, there must be dozens such people out there. Edit: The late 2013 one got a new keyboard in early 2020 as part of a inflated battery exchange, so it's not mushy due to wear.

iSnow 6y ago

Yeah, I wanted to replace my aging Macbook Air with a Linux box but each and every PC laptop trackpad was such a step down that I got hesitant. Additionally, PC manufacturers have been slow to adapt modern IO like Thunderbolt (like Dell had exactly one half-speed TB port for years on their flagship line where Apple had 4 full-speed). Now I've capitulated and am just waiting for the next iteration of the Apple silicon Macbooks. It is sad, but due to not generating sales at the same scale as MS or Apple, Linux lacks the development power to keep up.

hyperpl 6y ago

I would say the thinkpad keyboards are far superior to the Mac keyboards. Also the nub is much more usable to those that prefer it over the touchpad.

macintux 6y ago
> Also the nub is much more usable to those that prefer it over the touchpad. Usable as a pointer, maybe, but the trackpad has about 12 other features. Gestures, tap to click, have made the trackpad indispensable to me.

chociej 6y ago

It's really a shame. I'm in the same boat as you. I'd buy their machines instantly if I knew I could install my distro of choice. Last I read, Windows-via-Bootcamp was basically dead, and despite the efforts of e.g. the t2linux.org folks, it seems it's quite difficult to get Linux up and running 100%.