4 ms·

If not unions, some power structure must make for better working environments and conditions for people. It was once that someone working full time could afford

If not unions, some power structure must make for better working environments and conditions for people. It was once that someone working full time could afford a life. Amazon touts their $15 an hour like it’s something, but that’s lower than the industry average for warehouse workers. The quotas on warehouse workers and drivers are insane. Can’t wait for America to go back to having a real middle class.

jasd 6y ago
Where can I find this information about average warehouse worker pay? Also, Amazon suggests $15 per hour is their minimum pay. Is there any information about their average pay?
- taurath 6y ago
  Here's the beaureu of labor statistics for "packers" Warehousing and Storage Hourly mean wage -$16.05 https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes537064.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes537064.htm Amazon just increased their minimum pay to $15 in 2018 after being pressured. They are the countries second largest employer. The pay is not the only issue. Being at the lowest legal possible amount of protection. Multiple investigative books and stories have come out right around 2018 which Amazon replied by graciously increasing the wages and starting a marketing campaign to fight against the public opinion on working conditions. And before someone says it, I don't have a vendetta against Amazon specifically. I believe we should fight for worker protections and actual living wages for anyone who works full time. Amazon could be a shining beacon, but their quotas and cost-cutting at any cost leads us to a lowest common denominator society while Bezos gains another 10 billion dollars a year. For a larger look at the implications, this author goes over a lot of the systemic problems in a podcast synopsis: https://www.csis.org/podcasts/truth-matter/alec-macgillis-fulfillment-winning-and-losing-one-click-america https://www.csis.org/podcasts/truth-matter/alec-macgillis-fu...
Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
If not for the relentless quotas drivers and warehouse workers would be able to effectively use their breaks and lunch time to care for their biological needs. Amazon knowingly continues with their quota system as-is because they know that their employees have nowhere else to go.[0,1] Amazon doesn't care that their employees have no alternatives to defacating in bags and urinating in bottles[2]; only that their staff take their biological waste with them. This tweet was an attempt to reframe the criticism away from the image of a human, crouched down, in the back of an Amazon truck, clutching a bag beneath their butt as they desperately relieve themselves; all so they can meet their delivery quota.[3] The solution is rather simple and should be easily palatable for all but those whose livelihoods are dependent on the perverted form of socialised-for-the-capitalists capitalism under corpocracy as opposed to social market economies. That solution is industrial democracy in businesses.[4] ID is not perfect, nothing is. However, it would be give the majority of Amazon's employees the freedom to choose whether they want to continue to work themselves at a pace that requires them to use their [trucks, customers lawn, diapers, alleyway] as a rest room or if they should be given the latitude to locate a bathroom along their route. 0. https://minds.wisconsin.edu/handle/1793/80935 https://minds.wisconsin.edu/handle/1793/80935 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/business/economy/amazon-wages-alabama-union.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/business/economy/amazon-w... 2. https://twitter.com/amazonnews/status/1374911222361956359?s=19 https://twitter.com/amazonnews/status/1374911222361956359?s=... 3. https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7j7mb/amazon-delivery-drivers-are-overwhelmed-and-overworked-by-covid-19-surge https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7j7mb/amazon-delivery-drive... 4. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_democracy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_democracy
- mlazos 6y ago
  When I looked at 0 and 1 they don’t seem to have anything to support the notion that nobody has anywhere to go, in fact they seem to indicate the opposite - that Amazon may pay less than similar jobs in the same area. 0 seems to indicate that counties should not give Amazon incentive to bring fulfillment centers there because they aren’t worth it to the local economy, while 1 says Amazon pays less than similar jobs in the area.
  - vgeek 6y ago
    In an area with around 10 Amazon FCs that I know of, the digital billboards on the interstate advertising Amazon says jobs starting at $15/hr. Bandit signs, albeit professionally printed, in the same metro specifically for equivalent types of labor intensive package handling warehouse jobs at FedEx/DHL advertise wages in the $20-22hr range. I haven't noticed any signs for UPS. Anecdotal, but may suggest that in at least one market Amazon isn't a competitive wage for this class of work.
  - taurath 6y ago
    Thats because they employ more people. Just because 100 people in an area make $20/hr at UPS for example doesn't mean that amazon can't find people willing to accept $15/hr.
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
    0,1 are evidence that Amazon pays less than other competitors which goes to show that it is reasonable to assume that these people would take these better paying jobs if they could. Maybe they're working too hard at Amazon to take a day off for an interview, or lost in the application process at other companies.
- taurath 6y ago
  How much you're being downvoted for posting decent links shows me how little regard or empathy people on this forum have for people stuck in the lower end of the economy.
  - 6y ago
random5634 6y ago
We need to be clear - 15 is 2x minimum wage. And minimum wage affects everyone. So these politicos and others even here should probably do a bit more to help workers get the Amazon minimum before trashing Amazon? The “egregious” conduct is a USPS mailbox? Kind of pathetic It’s this weird world where Amazon is described as a hell hole and the three layer deep cleaning contractor workforce paying actual min wage and plenty of other crap jobs get a pass
- taurath 6y ago
  Sorry, who's favorable to the amazon unionization push that is giving a pass to minimum wage three layer deep contractor workforces? This is not the argument anyone is making. They want better working conditions for everyone. There is extremely good documentation on Amazon low-end workforce abusive practices. Not being able to take bathroom breaks as a driver or warehouse worker because the quota is set too high is a problem. Just having slightly higher than federal minimum wage does not solve those problems. Working at amazon fulfillment centers IS a bit of a hell hole. The contractor workforces are also hellholes. Poverty in the US is a hell hole. Amazon should not be defended, they should be forced to treat workers with human dignity and respect, because clearly they nor their three layer deep cleaning contractor workforce peers will do it otherwise.
  - random5634 6y ago
    The way to help everyone is to raise the minimum wage - let’s do that. Let’s increase social safety net which helps everyone. Continue to expand Obamacare even. Consider basic universal income. Lots of ideas help far more than having a few companies unionize
    - taurath 6y ago
      All for it. Also workplace protections with teeth.
    - pas 6y ago
      The minimum wage in itself doesn't help. [0] Real wage increase is needed. Also tangentially related: https://stayathomemacro.substack.com/p/racism-skews-our-beliefs-about-whats https://stayathomemacro.substack.com/p/racism-skews-our-beli... [0] "In the long-run, however, employers have far more flexibility. They can replace labor with capital. They can replace low-skilled workers with higher-skilled workers." - https://www.econlib.org/archives/2017/07/minimally_convi.html https://www.econlib.org/archives/2017/07/minimally_convi.htm... (note, Caplan is a libertarian)

jasd 6y ago

Where can I find this information about average warehouse worker pay? Also, Amazon suggests $15 per hour is their minimum pay. Is there any information about their average pay?

taurath 6y ago
Here's the beaureu of labor statistics for "packers" Warehousing and Storage Hourly mean wage -$16.05 https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes537064.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes537064.htm Amazon just increased their minimum pay to $15 in 2018 after being pressured. They are the countries second largest employer. The pay is not the only issue. Being at the lowest legal possible amount of protection. Multiple investigative books and stories have come out right around 2018 which Amazon replied by graciously increasing the wages and starting a marketing campaign to fight against the public opinion on working conditions. And before someone says it, I don't have a vendetta against Amazon specifically. I believe we should fight for worker protections and actual living wages for anyone who works full time. Amazon could be a shining beacon, but their quotas and cost-cutting at any cost leads us to a lowest common denominator society while Bezos gains another 10 billion dollars a year. For a larger look at the implications, this author goes over a lot of the systemic problems in a podcast synopsis: https://www.csis.org/podcasts/truth-matter/alec-macgillis-fulfillment-winning-and-losing-one-click-america https://www.csis.org/podcasts/truth-matter/alec-macgillis-fu...

Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago

If not for the relentless quotas drivers and warehouse workers would be able to effectively use their breaks and lunch time to care for their biological needs. Amazon knowingly continues with their quota system as-is because they know that their employees have nowhere else to go.[0,1] Amazon doesn't care that their employees have no alternatives to defacating in bags and urinating in bottles[2]; only that their staff take their biological waste with them. This tweet was an attempt to reframe the criticism away from the image of a human, crouched down, in the back of an Amazon truck, clutching a bag beneath their butt as they desperately relieve themselves; all so they can meet their delivery quota.[3] The solution is rather simple and should be easily palatable for all but those whose livelihoods are dependent on the perverted form of socialised-for-the-capitalists capitalism under corpocracy as opposed to social market economies. That solution is industrial democracy in businesses.[4] ID is not perfect, nothing is. However, it would be give the majority of Amazon's employees the freedom to choose whether they want to continue to work themselves at a pace that requires them to use their [trucks, customers lawn, diapers, alleyway] as a rest room or if they should be given the latitude to locate a bathroom along their route. 0. https://minds.wisconsin.edu/handle/1793/80935 https://minds.wisconsin.edu/handle/1793/80935 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/business/economy/amazon-wages-alabama-union.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/business/economy/amazon-w... 2. https://twitter.com/amazonnews/status/1374911222361956359?s=19 https://twitter.com/amazonnews/status/1374911222361956359?s=... 3. https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7j7mb/amazon-delivery-drivers-are-overwhelmed-and-overworked-by-covid-19-surge https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7j7mb/amazon-delivery-drive... 4. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_democracy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_democracy

mlazos 6y ago
When I looked at 0 and 1 they don’t seem to have anything to support the notion that nobody has anywhere to go, in fact they seem to indicate the opposite - that Amazon may pay less than similar jobs in the same area. 0 seems to indicate that counties should not give Amazon incentive to bring fulfillment centers there because they aren’t worth it to the local economy, while 1 says Amazon pays less than similar jobs in the area.
- vgeek 6y ago
  In an area with around 10 Amazon FCs that I know of, the digital billboards on the interstate advertising Amazon says jobs starting at $15/hr. Bandit signs, albeit professionally printed, in the same metro specifically for equivalent types of labor intensive package handling warehouse jobs at FedEx/DHL advertise wages in the $20-22hr range. I haven't noticed any signs for UPS. Anecdotal, but may suggest that in at least one market Amazon isn't a competitive wage for this class of work.
- taurath 6y ago
  Thats because they employ more people. Just because 100 people in an area make $20/hr at UPS for example doesn't mean that amazon can't find people willing to accept $15/hr.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
  0,1 are evidence that Amazon pays less than other competitors which goes to show that it is reasonable to assume that these people would take these better paying jobs if they could. Maybe they're working too hard at Amazon to take a day off for an interview, or lost in the application process at other companies.
taurath 6y ago
How much you're being downvoted for posting decent links shows me how little regard or empathy people on this forum have for people stuck in the lower end of the economy.
- 6y ago

random5634 6y ago

We need to be clear - 15 is 2x minimum wage. And minimum wage affects everyone. So these politicos and others even here should probably do a bit more to help workers get the Amazon minimum before trashing Amazon? The “egregious” conduct is a USPS mailbox? Kind of pathetic It’s this weird world where Amazon is described as a hell hole and the three layer deep cleaning contractor workforce paying actual min wage and plenty of other crap jobs get a pass

taurath 6y ago
Sorry, who's favorable to the amazon unionization push that is giving a pass to minimum wage three layer deep contractor workforces? This is not the argument anyone is making. They want better working conditions for everyone. There is extremely good documentation on Amazon low-end workforce abusive practices. Not being able to take bathroom breaks as a driver or warehouse worker because the quota is set too high is a problem. Just having slightly higher than federal minimum wage does not solve those problems. Working at amazon fulfillment centers IS a bit of a hell hole. The contractor workforces are also hellholes. Poverty in the US is a hell hole. Amazon should not be defended, they should be forced to treat workers with human dignity and respect, because clearly they nor their three layer deep cleaning contractor workforce peers will do it otherwise.
- random5634 6y ago
  The way to help everyone is to raise the minimum wage - let’s do that. Let’s increase social safety net which helps everyone. Continue to expand Obamacare even. Consider basic universal income. Lots of ideas help far more than having a few companies unionize
  - taurath 6y ago
    All for it. Also workplace protections with teeth.
  - pas 6y ago
    The minimum wage in itself doesn't help. [0] Real wage increase is needed. Also tangentially related: https://stayathomemacro.substack.com/p/racism-skews-our-beliefs-about-whats https://stayathomemacro.substack.com/p/racism-skews-our-beli... [0] "In the long-run, however, employers have far more flexibility. They can replace labor with capital. They can replace low-skilled workers with higher-skilled workers." - https://www.econlib.org/archives/2017/07/minimally_convi.html https://www.econlib.org/archives/2017/07/minimally_convi.htm... (note, Caplan is a libertarian)