4 ms·

Man, I've spent too much time in this space... I can only sum it up like this - The mind is not a joystick. Throughput is not the measurement of a good BCI.

Man, I've spent too much time in this space... I can only sum it up like this - The mind is not a joystick. Throughput is not the measurement of a good BCI. BCI as a term should be abolished. Someone is going to make something so seemingly simple, but unbelievably meaningful, to rule this space.

offtop5 6y ago
Hypothetically, if I can hire a PhD candidate and give him a million bucks to tweak the sensors for my brain specifically. Could he or she then make this like a joystick. Is the issue that there's so much variation between people.
- anonymouse008 6y ago
  That's more of a profession of faith in what a 'good' BCI will be, than a critique of the science -- There are many ways to get high fidelity 'joystick' level control out of a brain, especially if given one-on-one training. The problems for Neuralink will be the same with any implant - immune responses and infections - and in a sensitive area no less.
  - offtop5 6y ago
    No way in hell I'm letting anyone stick something in my brain, I thought there was a wireless way to do this. In a very dystopian way I could imagine shopping centers scanning the brain waves potential customers and taloring ads to them
    - mattkrause 6y ago
      Neurosurgeons live in a very weird bubble around elective surgery. I was at a conference where people were debating the merits of non-invasive vs. invasive neural interfaces. A surgeon argued that people would obviously never accept non-invasive ones...ON COSMETIC GROUNDS: EEG caps (and similar) look dorky. Many people do go to great pains to hide disabilities, but I was (and still am) really skeptical that this totally trumps fears around highly-invasive neurosurgery!
      - offtop5 6y ago
        I could see this being something that gets implanted towards the end of your life. Hypothetically let's say I'm 90, I'd love to be able to jack into the matrix to play with my grandkids.
        mattkrause 6y ago
        Maybe.... Even though it's an incredibly effective treatment, surgeons are pretty reluctant to do DBS implants on older patients with Parkinson's Disease because of the risks of the surgery itself. That's with a pretty clear medical case too.
- mattkrause 6y ago
  Controlling a 2D cursor is a pretty standard task. If you’ve already got an implant, I would be happy to take your million bucks. If not, you’d need an EEG rig first (I’m not going to jail over this!), but it’s still very doable. Wolpaw et al. had 1D EEG controls working 30 years ago.
dadrock 6y ago
Meanwhile: https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/8/22374749/elon-musk-neuralink-monkey-pong-brain-interface https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/8/22374749/elon-musk-neurali... You haters are literally lying lmao.
- anonymouse008 6y ago
  Again... not saying it’s not possible. Human beings have already played a game COLLABORATIVELY, with only mind to mind communication... this is a philosophical comment on what neuroscience should do, not what it is able to do. For example, as of this writing, you could have an experimental procedure that results in light sensitive neurons, that when excited by a laser, stop your breathing and remove the sensation of asphyxiation to let you die a painless, playful death. (Optogenetics, table stakes) So I think it’s massively important to discuss what should and shouldn’t be done with Neurotech, otherwise with the rate the “throughput” argument is going... aka all of these joystick developments... your life value will be pegged to how many blockchains your mind can mine... enjoy the matrix!

offtop5 6y ago

Hypothetically, if I can hire a PhD candidate and give him a million bucks to tweak the sensors for my brain specifically. Could he or she then make this like a joystick. Is the issue that there's so much variation between people.

anonymouse008 6y ago
That's more of a profession of faith in what a 'good' BCI will be, than a critique of the science -- There are many ways to get high fidelity 'joystick' level control out of a brain, especially if given one-on-one training. The problems for Neuralink will be the same with any implant - immune responses and infections - and in a sensitive area no less.
- offtop5 6y ago
  No way in hell I'm letting anyone stick something in my brain, I thought there was a wireless way to do this. In a very dystopian way I could imagine shopping centers scanning the brain waves potential customers and taloring ads to them
  - mattkrause 6y ago
    Neurosurgeons live in a very weird bubble around elective surgery. I was at a conference where people were debating the merits of non-invasive vs. invasive neural interfaces. A surgeon argued that people would obviously never accept non-invasive ones...ON COSMETIC GROUNDS: EEG caps (and similar) look dorky. Many people do go to great pains to hide disabilities, but I was (and still am) really skeptical that this totally trumps fears around highly-invasive neurosurgery!
    - offtop5 6y ago
      I could see this being something that gets implanted towards the end of your life. Hypothetically let's say I'm 90, I'd love to be able to jack into the matrix to play with my grandkids.
      - mattkrause 6y ago
        Maybe.... Even though it's an incredibly effective treatment, surgeons are pretty reluctant to do DBS implants on older patients with Parkinson's Disease because of the risks of the surgery itself. That's with a pretty clear medical case too.
mattkrause 6y ago
Controlling a 2D cursor is a pretty standard task. If you’ve already got an implant, I would be happy to take your million bucks. If not, you’d need an EEG rig first (I’m not going to jail over this!), but it’s still very doable. Wolpaw et al. had 1D EEG controls working 30 years ago.

dadrock 6y ago

Meanwhile: https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/8/22374749/elon-musk-neuralink-monkey-pong-brain-interface https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/8/22374749/elon-musk-neurali... You haters are literally lying lmao.

anonymouse008 6y ago
Again... not saying it’s not possible. Human beings have already played a game COLLABORATIVELY, with only mind to mind communication... this is a philosophical comment on what neuroscience should do, not what it is able to do. For example, as of this writing, you could have an experimental procedure that results in light sensitive neurons, that when excited by a laser, stop your breathing and remove the sensation of asphyxiation to let you die a painless, playful death. (Optogenetics, table stakes) So I think it’s massively important to discuss what should and shouldn’t be done with Neurotech, otherwise with the rate the “throughput” argument is going... aka all of these joystick developments... your life value will be pegged to how many blockchains your mind can mine... enjoy the matrix!